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Re: Q16 - throat surgery/ snore quesiton

by ohthatpatrick Fri Dec 31, 1999 8:00 pm

Great conversation.

Let me see if I can suggest an easier way to think about this argument, a way that makes getting the answer super easy.

This is a just a causal argument. LSAT has given us HUNDREDS of these over the years. Some of them require great cleverness to get through, but most of them follow a very predictable pattern:

Prem: Correlation between A and B.
Conc: A causes B.

Assumptions/Flaws
- could the causality actually work in reverse? i.e., is it possible that B causes A? (frequently the issue)
- could there be some third factor that really causes B, that's only coincidentally related to A? (frequently the issue)

To strengthen a causal argument, we almost always RULE OUT revere causality or RULE OUT an alternative cause.

EVERY time you see a correlation in the evidence, you should expect that a causal conclusion is around the corner, and immediately start asking yourself, "Could it be reverse causality? Could there be another cause?"

example:
A recent study found that people who drank more than 6 alcoholic beverages a day were more depressed than those who didn't. Thus, drinking excessively causes depression.

Assumptions/Flaws
- Is it possible that being depressed is causing these people to drink excessively? (that's an equally valid way to interpret the correlation given to us in the evidence)

- Is it possible that the people who drink a lot just lost their job or a loved one and THAT'S why they're depressed ?

The key to seeing these arguments coming a mile away is to recognize when you're hearing a CORRELATION. A correlation is just saying that there is a statistical relationship between two things.

People who study for LSAT are more likely to be right handed than left handed. Does that mean that studying for the LSAT is causing them to be right handed? Of course not. That initial correlation is true statistically, but it doesn't prove there's any causal connection between the variables.

Okay, back to #16.

As soon as I read "those who snored frequently were significantly more likely to have serious abnormalities than those who snored rarely", I thought -- correlation! I bet the author is going to conclude that one caused the other.

The conclusion did not disappoint. :)

So the evidence just says snoring is correlated with throat abnormalities.

Is it possible that throat abnormalities actually cause snoring (rather than the other way around)? Sure.

(E) is the answer because it rules out reverse causality.

----
the first poster wrote the evidence as:
We know:
snoring -> serious abnormalities
snoring-> damage throat of snorers

We shouldn't write a correlation with a conditional arrow. The arrow implies causality. But the whole point of a correlation is that it isn't necessarily causal.

I tend to represent correlations with a couple parallel lines, to say "these two factors are associated more often than not"

Severe depression || Excessive drinking
Studying for LSAT || right-handed
Snoring || serious abnormalities

This doesn't mean left causes right. Maybe right causes left. Maybe both are caused by something else.

===
(A) would probably weaken, if anything. it makes the evidence sound a bit less trustworthy, since self-reported data can often be unreliable.

(B) the throat surgery really has no bearing on the core of this argument. It was only brought up because that's where we got our tissue biopsies. And through studying the tissue biopsies, we saw the correlation between abnormalities and snoring.

(C) this does strengthen the argument, because it makes our data more trustworthy. If we want to prove that snoring caused this damage, we need to control for any other possible variable that otherwise could have caused the damage. This answer controls for some variables, such as age, weight, and state of health.

(like the other poster said, we sometimes have to choose which answer strengthens MOST --- however, in causal arguments, RULING OUT reverse causality and RULING OUT an alternative cause trumps everything else)

(D) again, the throat surgery has no bearing on the evidence for the conclusion. The evidence was a correlation between abnormalities and snoring.

Whew. Long explanation, but extremely important that we know what a correlation is and what the common issues in a causal argument will be.

Let me know if you want clarification on any of what I said.


#officialexplanation
 
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Q16 - Tissue biopsies taken on patients

by yoohoo081 Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:52 am

Got this question wrong, but after going over it, I realized my mistake. Please correct me if I'm mistaken!

Correct answer: E

We know:
snoring -> serious abnormalities
snoring-> damage throat of snorers
So, by adding E to the argument, we crossed out the possibility of abnormalities existing in non-snorers. Therefore, strengthening the argument by isolating the factor that the snoring is associated with abnormalities and snoring can damage the throat.

Wrong answers:
(A) self reporting could be inaccurate, so not really strengthen the argument

(B) okay, so throat surgery was not for the abnormalities. So what? doesn't really do anything to the argument. If anything, it may weaken the argument because abnormalities which are caused by snoring might be something not damaging enough to go under surgery.

(C) This would mean that this condition would not be applicable to the whole population. Only relevant to specific group. and how would this strengthen the argument? It doesn't.

(D) So, surgery doesn't fix surgery. So how would this strengthen the argument? do we even know throat surgery is to stop snoring? no. This argument doesn't strengthen the argument between snoring associated with abnormalities and damanging to the throat.
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Re: Q16 - Tissue biopsies taken on patients

by geverett Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:53 pm

I am interested to hear more about this. C seems like it would qualify as a strengthener, because it would eliminate an alternative reason for the throat damage (age, weight, health, lifestyle choice).

E is clearly superior, but has anyone noticed a shift in which the "best answer" clause of the LSAT is becoming increasingly more relevant as answers that should be eliminated now might have met the bar of consideration on older LSAT's. Thoughts?

Also I would love to hear more on D.
 
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Re: Q16 - throat surgery/ snore quesiton

by yoohoo081 Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:32 pm

geverett Wrote:I am interested to hear more about this. C seems like it would qualify as a strengthener, because it would eliminate an alternative reason for the throat damage (age, weight, health, lifestyle choice).

E is clearly superior, but has anyone noticed a shift in which the "best answer" clause of the LSAT is becoming increasingly more relevant as answers that should be eliminated now might have met the bar of consideration on older LSAT's. Thoughts?

Also I would love to hear more on D.


I did linger at C before I crossed out as well. It's true that it eliminates the "alternative reasons". However, we're not concerned with the age/ weight/ health or lifestyle choice of the people. We're concerned about supporting relationship between snorers and abnormalities. C doesn't eliminate non-snorers at all.

D... I'm wondering additional reason to disprove D is because throat surgery doesn't isolate the snorers from non-snorers. Also, this didn't even go through the abnormalities. It actually states that people who have undergone the surgery are NO MORE LIKELY TO SNORE than people not undergone the surgery.

Hm.. I tried expanding.. Hope I didn't miss the mark...
 
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Re: Q16 - throat surgery/ snore quesiton

by irene122 Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:03 pm

I understand E is the best answer but still somehow confused by D.

As I think there is a scope shift between the premise (people undergone surgery) and conclusion (the whole population). D notices the scope shift and somehow points out there is no big difference between these two scope (people undergone surgery is not much different from people haven't undergone surgery).

So I am concerning whether we count D as somehow strengthened the argument?

Did I miss something or overthink?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Q16 - throat surgery/ snore quesiton

by ohthatpatrick Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:42 pm

There is a scope shift in the sense that the author is concluding that "X causes Y", not just that "X caused Y for the people we were talking about in the evidence".

Here, the X and the Y are "snoring causes abnormalities".

The evidence used to support this notion is that, in a specific situation involving throat surgery patients, there was a correlation between abnormalities and snoring.

So in terms of LSAT giving us a correlation --> causality type argument, I think the throat surgery backdrop of this problem is totally irrelevant. The surgery has nothing to do with the argument core.

This argument could have just as easily said:
Medical students at a local university were conducting a series of autopsies on donated cadavers and noticed that the bodies with the most throat abnormalities belonged to those people who had "snoring" listed in their medical history. Thus, snoring can cause damage to the throat.

And the analogous answer choice (D) would be saying
(D) People who have their bodies donated to science are no more likely to snore than are those who do not donate their bodies to science.

The context or setting in which we found this correlation doesn't matter to the argument core, which is still just "because X is correlated with Y, X causes Y."

The reason the answer choice sounds kinda appealing is that, with causal arguments, we often consider the objection of "well, what if something ELSE was causing Y?"

This answer sounds like it is ruling out "throat surgery" as an alternative cause of "snoring", because (D) says there is no correlation between the two.

However, in this argument, we seem to already know that these patients were snorers before they had their throat surgery. So it was never even a possibility that throat surgery was the thing that caused the snoring.

What IS a possibility, given the facts, is that the throat abnormalities had been causing these patients to be snorers. We don't know which came first: the snoring or the throat abnormalities?

Since either one could be the cause or the effect, (E) removes a very important alternative interpretation of the evidence, thereby strengthening the author's interpretation.

In summary, we could say that (D) very mildly strengthens in the sense that it rules out throat surgery as a possible cause of snoring. But since we were never really able to consider the surgery the possible cause of the snoring, I'm more inclined to say that (D) does not move the plausibility of the argument in either direction.

Hope this clarifies. Let me know if it doesn't.
 
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Re: Q16 - Tissue biopsies taken on patients

by rostov Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:37 pm

D doesn't strengthen, not even a bit. This answer choice is not the same as saying that we have a random population. It's saying we have similar people. This does not help in any way.
 
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Re: Q16 - Tissue biopsies taken on patients

by mydota Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:42 pm

C is referring to test subjects. When referring to test subjects, we are usually referring to participants in designed experiments. It seems unlikely that this is a designed experiment because the ethical board would be unlikely to approve experiments that involve cutting of live human tissues. This looks more like a clinical observation. Therefore, the word "test subjects" looks suspicious.
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Re: Q16 - throat surgery/ snore quesiton

by uhdang Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:47 am

ohthatpatrick Wrote:Great conversation.

(C) this does strengthen the argument, because it makes our data more trustworthy. If we want to prove that snoring caused this damage, we need to control for any other possible variable that otherwise could have caused the damage. This answer controls for some variables, such as age, weight, and state of health.

(like the other poster said, we sometimes have to choose which answer strengthens MOST --- however, in causal arguments, RULING OUT reverse causality and RULING OUT an alternative cause trumps everything else)


Hi, Patrick
Just wanted to share my thought process when eliminating C.
I rather thought this was weakening because good study usually target random people of all age range and all different health state to make a general health-related statement such as the conclusion of this stimulus. So, by narrowing the target to ONLY similar age and similar state of health, there might have been some things that could have been left out and unaccounted for OR there could have been common characteristics ONLY to those age groups or health groups. Maybe those people in similar age group might lived through an era where exercising trend (maybe in 70s) involved a nose movement ( nose-exercise ) that made their noses prone to snoring.

What do you think?
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Re: Q16 - Tissue biopsies taken on patients

by ohthatpatrick Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:17 pm

I see what you're saying, that a maximally robust study would have a huge sample size with many different segments of the population. That way we could study a snoring/abnormality connection and see if it applies across age groups, or if age group seems to be a determining factor.

But, to use your 70's example, doesn't (C) rule out 70's as an alternate cause?

Since all the test subjects were of similar age, either they all lived through the 70's or none of them did.

In either case, the 70's couldn't be the cause of the difference between the snoring group and the non-snoring group. Both groups would have lived through the 70s (or not).

The "exercising trend" could still be an alternative cause, because that doesn't get equalized by similar age, similar health.

If (C), said "all of the test subjects were of similar age, similar health, and similar past exercising habits", it would strengthen even more.

The only way we'd ever prove that snoring caused the throat damage is to have two groups that are completely identical, except for whether or not they snore.

So answers that take us closer to that perfectly controlled experiment help us to isolate the variable in question.
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Re: Q16 - Tissue biopsies taken on patients

by uhdang Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:33 pm

ohthatpatrick Wrote:I see what you're saying, that a maximally robust study would have a huge sample size with many different segments of the population. That way we could study a snoring/abnormality connection and see if it applies across age groups, or if age group seems to be a determining factor.

But, to use your 70's example, doesn't (C) rule out 70's as an alternate cause?

Since all the test subjects were of similar age, either they all lived through the 70's or none of them did.

In either case, the 70's couldn't be the cause of the difference between the snoring group and the non-snoring group. Both groups would have lived through the 70s (or not).

The "exercising trend" could still be an alternative cause, because that doesn't get equalized by similar age, similar health.

If (C), said "all of the test subjects were of similar age, similar health, and similar past exercising habits", it would strengthen even more.

The only way we'd ever prove that snoring caused the throat damage is to have two groups that are completely identical, except for whether or not they snore.

So answers that take us closer to that perfectly controlled experiment help us to isolate the variable in question.


I think I understand your point. Please tell me if I am correct in that.

I originally believed that any alternative cause that could potentially be given from equalizing conditions such as age, weight and health stat could explain the difference between snoring and Non-snoring group. And this was clearly a mistake because the stimulus, or rather a premise, already sets out that there are two distinguished groups (and we can't argue with the premise), so considering additional condition THAT APPLIES TO BOTH GROUP will only make the study MORE focused on finding out the discrepancy between two groups.

I was mistaken in thinking that this alternate cause ( i.e. nose exercise ) will cause some to be in snoring group and others to be non-snoring group, thereby thinking it would weaken the argument.

I think that was the mistake from my part. Is my fixed thought process correct?

And thank you so much for pointing out my mistaken thought process and fixing it (assuming my new process it right lol)! I really appreciate it.
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Re: Q16 - Tissue biopsies taken on patients

by ohthatpatrick Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:38 pm

Yeah it seems like you're there. Maybe we can make it a hair simpler:

"I originally believed that any alternative cause that could potentially be given from equalizing conditions such as age, weight and health stat could explain the difference between snoring and Non-snoring group."

Correct, I think.

If you've equalized age, weight, health, then you know that THOSE aren't explaining the correlation between snoring and throat damage.

If we introduced some distinction between the snorers and the non-snorers (other than snoring), then maybe THAT distinction could be the real cause of the throat damage.

A distinction like that could weaken.

The simple way to think about (C) is that it does not give us a distinction! :)

You're acting like it "sets the stage for a distinction". No fair. They're asking us to judge what effect THE ACTUAL FACT provided gives us. (C) gives us sameness, and sameness between two experimental groups strengthens the experiment.

Any layer of sameness we introduce in the answer choices is "ruling out" an alternate cause.

Any layer of distinctiveness we introduce could be introducing an alternate cause.
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Re: Q16 - Tissue biopsies taken on patients

by uhdang Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:11 pm

ohthatpatrick Wrote: sameness between two experimental groups strengthens the experiment. Any layer of sameness we introduce in the answer choices is "ruling out" an alternate cause. Any layer of distinctiveness we introduce could be introducing an alternate cause.

Aha! this is it!
Thank you very much for going extra distance to clarify this. :) Very grateful for your help :D
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Re: Q16 - throat surgery/ snore quesiton

by PhoebeL747 Thu May 23, 2019 3:11 pm

irene122 Wrote:I understand E is the best answer but still somehow confused by D.

As I think there is a scope shift between the premise (people undergone surgery) and conclusion (the whole population). D notices the scope shift and somehow points out there is no big difference between these two scope (people undergone surgery is not much different from people haven't undergone surgery).

So I am concerning whether we count D as somehow strengthened the argument?

Did I miss something or overthink?

Thanks in advance!


I thought D was appealing because it sounds like it eliminates a possible cause of abnormality in throat but it actually only eliminates a correlation between throat surgery and snoring, which is not really meaningful fro a causal argument and is definitely not nearly as strong as eliminating a possible cause of snoring in E.