aileenann
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Q15 - There are circumstances in which

by aileenann Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:59 pm

In this sort of question, we need to articulate the underlying logic of an argument at its most general level and replicate that same broad pattern with an entirely different kind of content. The best way to do this is to articulate the logic in the argument in as general and high level a way as you can, for each content-specific word using a variable instead.

Here are the sentences in the argument coupled with a general/high level logical restatement of each:

There are circumstances in which it is not immoral to make certain threats -> There are circumstances in which it is not A to do X. -> There are circumstances in which doing X is not A.

There are circumstances in which it is not immoral to ask for a job or money -> There are circumstances in which it is not A to do Y -> There are circumstances in which doing Y is not A.

Therefore there are circumstances in which it is not immoral to ask for a job/money while making threats -> Therefore there are circumstances in which doing X & Y simultaneously is not A.

We have three distinct ideas here, and there is also a flaw in this argument (extra points if you spotted it!). This is a common flaw the LSAT uses in what are in fact set membership questions. Here, we are talking about the set of things that are not inappropriate (i.e. appropriate). Some points within this set include X and some include Y, but that doesn’t mean that X and Y necessarily overlap at all (draw yourself a Venn diagram for this argument, and you’ll see what I mean).

With all this in mind, let’s look for an argument. We need to be sure to pick one that reproduces the flaw above.

(A) This one is a tough one. You probably have a sense after reading it that something is a little off, even if there is the right number of groups. Now that I’ve confirmed your sense that something is wrong, I’ll ask you to think about it and try to formalize it before reading on (it’s discussed a bit later in this posting). On a real LSAT, I wouldn’t be thrilled with this, but I probably wouldn’t get rid of right away either because it does seem to have some of the same elements as the original argument.
(B) This argument is just silly _ it’s an entirely different logic structure from what we’re doing here. This is an if-then sort of construction, whereas we’re interested in subsets of groups.
(C) This looks like a pretty attractive answer. It has the right number of groups. Also, it has the same flaw we have above _ assuming things can be or will be combined just because two things match with the same situation or label.
(D) This has too many ideas _ it is not even a contender.
(E) This has the same problem as (B) in being an if-then sort of construction rather than a construction about subgroups.

So if there were the real LSAT, and liking (C) so much, I’d go with that without articulating to myself exactly what the problem with (A) is. Luckily, we’ve got plenty of time just now, so let’s think for a second about what’s going on with A. Let me spell out the logic a bit:

It says in business settings, casual clothing can be appropriate: So in B, X can be A.
It also says in some social settings, casual clothing can be appropriate. So in S, X can be A.

Now you have probably already seen one problem with this argument. It has four groups, not two!

There is an additional problem with the logic too that is different from the one in the original argument. Kudos to whoever spots it first and posts here :)
 
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Re: Q15 - There are circumstances in which

by cyruswhittaker Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:06 pm

I believe the second point of logical difference in A and the passage is that the conclusion in the passage does not assert a "chance" of something happening. It simply asserts there are circumstances in which there will be an overlap.

On a similair note, one aspect of (C) that was a little different was that it's conclusion was strongly stated as "it is healthful..." while in the passage, the conclusion was qualified with "there are circumstances..."

Ultimately I chose (C) out of POE, but I'm curious to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks!
 
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Re: PT 59, S3, Q15 There are circumstances in which it is not

by aileenann Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Well done Cyrus - that was the other distinction between (A) and the original stimulus I was thinking of.

I'd disagree with you about (C) though, or at least partly. I think, if you look to make it work, that (C) uses "for a headache" in the same way that the original stimulus uses "there are circumstances." So I'd argue that the original stimulus is stated no more or less strongly than (C) - it's simply that "there are circumstances" is often used to equivocate in real world parlance, so we mistake it here for a softening when it isn't necessarily so. Now I don't think this is air tight, but it's a perspective on (C) that makes it work better than your comments suggest.

Let me know what you think :)
 
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Re: Q15 - There are circumstances in which

by lhermary Tue May 22, 2012 7:00 pm

Can someone go into more detail as to why E is wrong?
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Re: Q15 - There are circumstances in which

by ManhattanPrepLSAT1 Wed May 23, 2012 5:40 pm

The strength of answer choice (E) is too strong. The argument in the stimulus attempts to combine 2 "some" statements to infer that in those "some" statements there must be an overlap of the sets. This is similar to the following:

A <-s-> B
B <-s-> C
-----------
A <-s-> C

Answer choice (E) is more similar to the following:

R ---> MRT
R ---> MSF
------------
MRT + MSF ---> R

Notation Key: R = rain, MRT = mountain roads are treacherous, MSF = mountain streams are full

The error committed in answer choice (E) is reversed logic where the argument mistakes a sufficient condition for one that is necessary.

Let me know if you still need more help on this one!
 
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Re: Q15 - There are circumstances in which

by asafezrati Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:57 pm

Another question regarding how A is different from the stimulus:
In addition to the differences spotted earlier in this thread, I've also noticed that the conclusions are flawed in a different way.
The stimulus concludes that if two different items (X,Y) are not immoral (A) seperately sometimes, and therefore when they occur together they are not immoral (A).
A/C A concludes that if a dress is appropriate on 2 certain occasions separately, it is likely that the dress is not appropriate in any other condition.

Therefore the flaws are different.

Am I right on this one?
 
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Re: Q15 - There are circumstances in which

by seychelles1718 Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:49 pm

Can I eliminate C and D for its "usually" and "generally", respectively? Usually and generally means "most" but the stimulus doesn't have any "most" statement.
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Re: Q15 - There are circumstances in which

by ohthatpatrick Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:22 pm

I think you mean (B) and (D).

Eliminate? Not quite.
Defer and bail from, thinking "probably not"? Definitely!

The problem is that Match the Flaw isn't always picky about pure structural matches like that.

There have been correct answers that, for example, used an "either/or" claim even though the original stimulus did not.

What's most important here is replicating the flaw. If the flaw is very mathematical / quantified in nature, then you can be pretty insistent on matching quantity terms.

But since the flaw here could potentially be generalized to "if two things can be true separately, then they can be true together", you might want to squiggle (B) and (D) as "PROBABLY not right" and bail as soon as you see that mismatch.

But if nothing else was better, you might have to forgive a slight mismatch in order to find the answer that best replicates the flaw.

I would also say since the original flaw is "A can be true and B can be true, thus A and B can be true together", we could also distrust (B) and (D) quickly with stuff like
(B) A is usually true, provided that B is true ...
(D) A is generally true, but B is true ....