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Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by kimnamil14 Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:17 pm

I was looking at choices A, C, and E.

I think A is wrong because Lurano doesn't mention anything about snow melting. Likewise, Jenkins says that in Jan. and Feb., it's cold enough to ensure that the snow won't melt, but that doesn't tell us whether the snow will melt or won't melt in later months. Is my reason correct in eliminating A?

So I was really torn between C and E. On E, I think Lurano might say no (since he does bring in the issue of risk posed to the researchers), but can we safely infer that Jenkins would say that research funding considerations outweigh the risk?? Jenkins merely says that research money shouldn't be wasted; he doesn't go as far as stating that research funding is more important than safety of researchers.

Thanks a lot in advance for your help!
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by bbirdwell Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:00 pm

Good reasoning! That is exactly why (A) and (E) are incorrect.
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Re: PT 39 S2, Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties...

by kimnamil14 Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:00 pm

Thanks for your input, but according to the answer key I have, the correct answer for this question is E. Unless my answer key is wrong, can someone please explain why E is supported? When Lurano says "I disagree," I thought he was disagreeing with Jenkins' idea that if the research team waits until a later month, it'll be unable to carry out research successfully, hence the waste of research money. That's why I ultimately chose C on this one.
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Re: PT 39 S2, Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties...

by bbirdwell Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:13 pm

Ah! So sorry - I answered your first post too quickly!

(E) is tricky to justify if you focus only on the question of whether Jenkins thinks funding outweighs risks. The inclusion of "January and February" in the choice allows the key inference here. While Jenkins doesn't say that risk is outweighed, he thinks Jan and Feb are the time to go, because of funding. We can infer, then, that funding concerns in Jan and Feb outweigh other concerns.

This is especially true because each of the other choices can be easily disqualified.

(A) "possibility." They both agree.
(B) "impossible." Too strong. They both disagree.
(C) is close but ultimately incorrect because, while Lurano disagrees, we actually don't know if Jenkins agrees that the money WILL be wasted. He simply states that there is a RISK that the money will be wasted.
(D) is also a bit too strong. It seems reasonable that both guys would agree, yet that's the whole point that they're debating -- maybe temps will be much lower, maybe they won't.
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties...

by zainrizvi Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:55 pm

I'm still not clear on how you can infer (E). Just because he thinks that they should go in Jan/Feb doesn't mean he thinks it outweighs, let alone considers, other factors.
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties...

by bbirdwell Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:14 pm

It's reasonable to think that Jenkins would agree with (E). He says we SHOULD go in Jan/Feb. Why? Funding.

Lurano would disagree. He says we should NOT go in Jan/Feb, because it's risky.

Again, it's a good idea to focus on eliminating choices for concrete reasons and then choose the MOST SUPPORTED one of the pack.
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Re: PT 39 S2, Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties...

by zainrizvi Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:32 pm

bbirdwell Wrote:Ah! So sorry - I answered your first post too quickly!

(E) is tricky to justify if you focus only on the question of whether Jenkins thinks funding outweighs risks. The inclusion of "January and February" in the choice allows the key inference here. While Jenkins doesn't say that risk is outweighed, he thinks Jan and Feb are the time to go, because of funding. We can infer, then, that funding concerns in Jan and Feb outweigh other concerns.

This is especially true because each of the other choices can be easily disqualified.

(A) "possibility." They both agree.
(B) "impossible." Too strong. They both disagree.
(C) is close but ultimately incorrect because, while Lurano disagrees, we actually don't know if Jenkins agrees that the money WILL be wasted. He simply states that there is a RISK that the money will be wasted.
(D) is also a bit too strong. It seems reasonable that both guys would agree, yet that's the whole point that they're debating -- maybe temps will be much lower, maybe they won't.


Sorry for beating a dead horse but I have been reviewing and while I understand the gist of your reasoning now, I'm still unclear as to the role of Jan/Feb in this choice. Without the Jan/Feb component, would this choice be too vague to be supported? After all, Jenkins doesn't really talk about what outweighs what. But because of the January/February, it allows us to infer a bit more than we usually would be able to.

In most situations this answer choice would not be ideal but, following our eliminate first and look for MOST supported, it does work.
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties...

by ohthatpatrick Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:22 pm

You've nailed it. Without the "jan/feb" part of that answer, it becomes an even broader claim about funding vs. Safety.

It's a bit of a debate whether E would still be the most supportable. You'd still have Jenkins discussing funding being wasted and Lurano discussing safety concerns, so there is SOME support.

But the fact that Jenkins makes a judgment that we SHOULD do the research in Jan/Feb definitely gives us more ammunition for supporting E.

Naturally, I agree with everyone who's previously remarked that E is most supported, not logically entailed.

Tough example of this question type, for my money.
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by samuelfbaron Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:08 pm

I found this one extremely difficult.

I passed over (E) thinking that we didn't know about what J & L think about funding vs risk.

Doesn't (E) seem a little strong? How do we know that Jenkin's opinion on the risk to the researchers? He just talks about the financial implications. Does Jenkin's reasoning feature an implicit assumption about the risk to the researchers?
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by WaltGrace1983 Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:18 pm

samuelfbaron Wrote:I found this one extremely difficult.

I passed over (E) thinking that we didn't know about what J & L think about funding vs risk.

Doesn't (E) seem a little strong? How do we know that Jenkin's opinion on the risk to the researchers? He just talks about the financial implications. Does Jenkin's reasoning feature an implicit assumption about the risk to the researchers?


I agree. This one IS very difficult. Let's break it down again.

    Jenkins:
    (Wait until a later month) → Risk possibility of carrying out research → Research should be conducted in Jan/Feb

    Lurano:
    Researchers run less risk of suffering dangerous exposure to cold → Research doesn't need to be conducted in Jan/Feb


They both disagree on whether Jan/Feb are the only months to do the research. Jenkins says yes by saying it "should be conducted" during that time while Lurano says no by saying that he "disagrees."

It is important to understand WHY each person comes to the conclusion they do. WHY does Jenkins believe what he believes? Because "otherwise we would risk the possibility of not getting the research done" he says! WHY does Lurano believe what he believes? Because "researchers won't be risked so much," he says!

The fact that they are offering completely different perspectives on the issue shows us something. We can clearly see that Jenkins is thinking most about the effectiveness of the research. After all, his PRIMARY reason for wanting to do research in Jan/Feb is because otherwise they would be unable to carry out research. We can also clearly see that Lurano is thinking most about the researchers and the risks that they will go through.

I think if you just analyze what they are using to back up their arguments, you see where there primary concerns lie. Because Jenkins appeals primarily to X and Lurano appeals primarily to Y, we can tell that Jenkins favors X over Y while Lurano favors Y over X.

(C) was the one I really struggled with. However, it can be eliminated because we don't know if Jenkins agrees that the funding will be wasted, just that there is a possibility that it will be. "Will" is a very definitive statement here. Also, Lurano doesn't really offer anything about the funding so we might not even be able to come up with anything better than a stretch assumption for him.
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by mjacob0511 Fri May 23, 2014 11:05 am

I was taught the yes/no method for these types of questions. I do not see how we can attach any opinion about the risks to Jenkins. His argument is purely from a funding and monetary perspective. He merely says it's important that the research money not be wasted but what if a major catastrophe or storm took place and it wasn't possible? Jenkins does not seem to be addressing the idea of risk, he is just saying do not push it off now because we will risk losing the money. Until Lurano brings up the risks, Jenkins could just be unaware of them.
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by C.Michael.Kim Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:43 pm

I'd like to echo the above sentiment. I didn't see how it was definite that Jenkins figured research funding considerations outweighed the risk to researchers. Like the above poster mentioned, he might have been unaware of that possibility until Lurano brought it up. In these situations are you just supposed to assume each person is going to stick by his reasoning despite being enlightened to other considerations?

For example, if person A claims that boxer X is the heavyweight champion of the world but person B says that is incorrect and that boxer X was the champion last year but the title is currently held by boxer Y, do you have to assume that they still disagree who the champion is?
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by ohthatpatrick Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:20 pm

Yes, we agree with both of the previous posters. It's not a very well written question. Do you have an answer you find MORE supportable than (E)?

Remember not to demand perfection and MUST BE TRUE out of question stems that say "most strongly support".

We start from a goal of MUST BE TRUE - type proveability, but we're ultimately stuck picking the most supportable answer.

To the last poster's question, I would say it's fair to say that any time we read these ID the Disagreement questions you should read it as, "they STILL disagree". It would be too "off the page" for us to infer that one person had been convinced by the other person that a previously held opinion is wrong.

So if you understand the rules of the game are
1. They're both aware of the statements the other person said 2. They're both sticking to their statements
then it's easier to pick (E) here.

=== complete explanation ====

(A) They seem to agree that snow may melt in April and May (L only says that it will still be "quite cold")

(B) "impossible" is too extreme. The discussion here is over when research SHOULD be conducted not when it's possible.

(C) "will be wasted" is too extreme. J only says that we RISK wasting funding.

(D) no explicit discussion of temperatures, but the gist seems to be, like (A), that they would both agree about this. Jan/Feb is so cold that it ENSURES ice will not melt. April/May is still quite cold. The implied logic of that is that it will have warmed up by April/May, but maybe not so signficantly.

(E) the correct answer
We REALLY would love to see an answer saying "When should we conduct this research", because we have two explicitly different answers to that question. Instead we get (E), our best answer, which at least summarizes each person's reason for reaching this differing conclusion.

===
Take a look at this question if you want to see LSAT doing a similar thing: (providing an explicit disagreement about what should be done but creating a correct answer choice that ranks the REASONS WHY each person reaches his position)

PT43, S3, Q6
http://www.manhattanlsat.com/forums/q6- ... t4763.html
===
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by cverdugo Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:12 pm

Pretty tough question! Picked C on my initial run-through, on review it took me awhile and now I see why it's E.

Jenkins: Main point of his argument was that we RISK research money being wasted if we go after Jan & February.

Lurano: He disagrees. He says it will be cold enough in April and May, and by going later researchers run less risk of suffering dangerous exposure to the cold.

I think an important thing to notice about both arguments before diving into the answer choices is that although they disagree they don't dispute the other's evidence. They simply believe their ideas better.

(A) We would have no way to know this, only one mentions the risk.

(B) No they both seem to understand that snow can be studied

(C) The answer I picked but looking back it seems only supported by Jenkins. Maybe Lurano agrees that funding might be wasted, he just cares about the safety of the researchers more

(D) No this isn't what they are in disagreement about, in fact it could go either way it doesn't matter.

(E) This is correct. Look at their main points and we will see that each of them gives their point of view of what's most important. So they will disagree about what is more important.
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by donghai819 Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:37 pm

Hi Patrick,

I compared 43-3-6 Antonia with this question and I found some interesting features. The following is my thoughts.

The arbitrary word in disagreement is a red flight in Disagreement questions. By saying something is the "only" one or the "best" one, it is safe to assume that he would disagree every alternative explanations. While in many questions the second person does not directly refute the first person's conclusion or premise, the second person often disagrees with the point that something is the "best" or "only". Therefore, the correct answer choice is likely more or less related to the sentence where one says that something is the "only" "best".

Similar stuff happens in conditional statements. If one gives a condition statement and the statement is also an important part of conclusion, the necessary statement could be considered as another form, in comparison with "best" and "only, of an exclusive statement. While the second person does not have to directly refute the first one's argument, by providing an alternative consideration, the second person challenges reasonable implication of the conditional statement made by the first person.

I know there definitely would be some wrong ideas and it is in fact a mess. I do appreciate any comment and discussion, so I can fix it and make it integral.

more:

After reading your post on: https://www.manhattanprep.com/lsat/foru ... t6923.html
I found a mystically interesting point that LSAT invariably regard "take for granted that a part that has one characteristic guarantees a whole to have the same characteristic, but when this "flaw" comes to "most strongly supported", LSAT artificially shows its "flexibility". Same rules apply to other flaws in many ways.

Interesting.
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by ohthatpatrick Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:14 pm

I love that you're giving this stuff a lot of thought and trying to look at transferable insights between related problems. That's definitely where the deeper understanding of the test comes from.

I think what you were essentially getting at is this. Suppose we heard:

Bob: The only way to get into Harvard is to get a good LSAT score.
Karen: Not so. Sometimes people have been admitted to Harvard simply because of strong personal statements.

We might see a correct "ID the disagreement" answer choice that says
(A) Strong personal statements are one way of getting into Harvard

We might initially think, "Hey, Bob never even talked about personal statements."

Bob talked about LSAT score. But because Bob used a limiting, extreme word like "only / requires / needs / must", he automatically holds an opinion on everything that is NOT "getting a good LSAT score".
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by jiangziou Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:18 pm

Here are my thoughts. Hope it helps.
This question is no more unique than others in terms of the approach of "Identify the disagreement" questions.

Image

Normally there is only one overlap, but this question has two. (E) combine those two overlaps(1 and 4), which constitute the difference in reason/preference of each party.

(A) ---#3 Jenkins doesn't have an opinion
(C) ---"Will" is too extreme. It distorts Jenkins' opinion, so no one has an opinion on this issue.
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by roflcoptersoisoi Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:25 pm

(A) They seem to agree on this. Jenkins implies that snow will be melted by when he states that the study should be conducted din January/ February because it will still be cold enough to ensure snow won't melt. Lurano says that it is likely it will still be cold to do the study in April but leaves open the possibility that it won't be cold enough or enough snow on the ground.
(B) They both disagree with this. The operative word here is "impossible" Lurando says that it is likely that they will be able to investigate the properties of snow due to the probability of it still being cold outside. Jenkins implies that it is not likely (if we wait another month we risk being unable to carry out the research successfully), but not that it's impossible
(C) The operative word in this answer choice is "will" which extends the scope of the arguments put forth by both agents. Jenkins implies although this will likely be the outcome, that there is a possibility that it won't be the case. Lurando also agrees that although it is a possibility it not likely to the case.
(D) They both seem to agree on this. Lurando: "Weather still likely to be cold" Jenkins "The weather is then cold enough to ensure snow will not melt" The implication here being that this would not be the case in later months.
(E) Bingo.
Jenkins: Conduct the experiment in January/February at all costs, it's important not to waste research money, who gives a shit about the well being of researchers.
Lurando: Wait.. woo.. no. Conduct the experiment a bit later when it is likely to be less cold but cold enough to still conduct the experiment because the researchers will be less likely of being dangerously exposed to the cold.
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by WesleyC316 Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:41 pm

I thought LSAC wouldn't allow us to make tiny inferences or assumptions while doing LR questions. For E to be right, there has to be an assumption that Jenkins actually took the researchers' health conditions into consideration, and came up with a conclusion that the risk of wasting funding outweighs that. But the way I see it, the health issue never came up in his head, because he mentioned nothing about it, so we don't know about his position on this, meaning Jenkins neither agrees or disagrees. Clearly the test makers don't think so.

But I do concede to one point that E is the best answer comparing with the other four. I chose C at first and now I realize why it's wrong. And I can accept one point, as raised earlier by other comments, that Jenkins may actually think that funding outweighs every other factors, because that's his only consideration, making E the right answer choice. This explanation is acceptable but not compelling to me.

Man, LSAC better stop making these kinds of questions and answers. Drives me crazy.
 
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Re: Q13 - Jenkins: Research on the properties

by LaurenL251 Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:06 pm

I love that you're giving this stuff a lot of thought and trying to look at transferable insights between related problems. That's definitely where the deeper understanding of the test comes from.

I think what you were essentially getting at is this. Suppose we heard:

Bob: The only way to get into Harvard is to get a good LSAT score.
Karen: Not so. Sometimes people have been admitted to Harvard simply because of strong personal statements.

We might see a correct "ID the disagreement" answer choice that says
(A) Strong personal statements are one way of getting into Harvard

We might initially think, "Hey, Bob never even talked about personal statements."

Bob talked about LSAT score. But because Bob used a limiting, extreme word like "only / requires / needs / must", he automatically holds an opinion on everything that is NOT "getting a good LSAT score".



I agree with all of this, however, where is the "limiting" language in Jenkins' opinion? Jenkins just says "important." He doesn't say "the only important" or the "most important."

Thanks in advance! :D