Diagram

[aap]

I have setup the initial game, but am struggling to see the 2nd level inferences. Anyone have any suggestions? Here's what I have thus far.

Q,R,S,T,V,Z
--- --- 1
--- --- 2
--- --- 3
M P

SP - ZM
Q >= T
V=2

13 and 14 fell out nicely from these initial inferences, but now I am slammed. Any help would be appreciated.

thnx

[noah]

I set it up somewhat differently (at least visually-speaking):



There weren't any other initial inferences that I caught (perhaps that's a relief to you, or perhaps we're both missing something!). This seemed to be a game calling for deft management of the rules.

PT 43, S4, G3 - Painting Sales - ManhattanLSAT.pdf

(48.66 KiB) Downloaded 867 times

For #15, the only restrictions on the first period are that Z and V can't be sold then.

For #16, we can make a mini diagram and there's really only one possible answer (even though it is a "could be true" question - it would be difficult to word this question as a "must be" as it is a possible scenario under the new condition)

Tell me if that helps and if you have any other questions on this. Good luck!

[aap]

Thanks for the prompt reply. Most helpful.

thnx

[mcrittell]

Noah, in your diagram, I think it's suppose to be [T]--[Q] because the rules stipulate "Q is NOT from an earlier period than T"

[noah]

Noah, in your diagram, I think it's suppose to be [T]--[Q] because the rules stipulate "Q is NOT from an earlier period than T"

Extra point for you on the LSAT! Fixed!

[mcrittell]

1-1111

Michael-Noah.

I'll catch up, don't worry!

[tzyc]

Hi,
How do you decide which to use as a basement when make a diagram?
I at first have m and p as basement, and after reading the constraints I felt maybe this does not work.
How can we know while reading the stimuli??

Thanks!

[noah]

Hi,
How do you decide which to use as a basement when make a diagram?
I at first have m and p as basement, and after reading the constraints I felt maybe this does not work.
How can we know while reading the stimuli??

Thanks!

I'd say that whenever there is ordering of some sort, than throw that on the bottom.

I imagine you could have played this game successfully the other way, so don't sweat it too much with this game.

In general, look at the rules, and see which arrangement will allow you the highest number of restrictions IN the diagram (as opposed to just writing the rule to the side). This issue is more relevant with Open Grouping (what we've been calling "Open Assignment" games, but we're about to change to some new game names).

I hope that helps.

[matthew.mainen]

I've found that frames work. Usually When I see something like X-Y, and there are three spaces, for them to go, it seems like a good bet to frame. The bottom two frames can be filled in a little more, but it didn't seem all that necessary as there were so few variables left.



http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7358/1072 ... 8542_k.jpg

[tommywallach]

Framing is always cool, but I'm always a bit nervous when more than 2 frames are involved: look at all the space! However, it's always a toss-up, and dependent on whether people prefer to make more inferences up front, or on the back end.

-t

[steves]

I like the diagram in the answer key (for 3D/Hybrid Practice Set 1 & in the LG Study Guide) a bit better than the pdf above. The answer key diagram has separate rows for Museum and Private paintings, but still with the time periods on the bottom.

When I first did this game, instead of putting the time periods on the bottom (since its a Hybrid ordering game) I put the paintings on the bottom with rows for the time period and for the buyer. Big mistake!

A couple questions:
1. I understand this to be a hybrid game rather than 3D grouping because of the ordering. With the caveat that the time period should be on the bottom because of the ordering, does identification as ordering v. 3D grouping matter in terms of how to approach it? The board still looks like a 3D ordering board.

2. It was a time-consuming mistake to put the paintings on the bottom. Would the only time that the paintings should go on the bottom be for an open grouping game (which this obviously is not)?

[ohthatpatrick]

Don't stress over getting the name of the game type right. Think of the game types you've learned just as launching pads for familiar tasks.

When I think 3D ordering, I think "we're putting these 6 things in order, but for each thing I also have to keep track of some secondary trait, whether it's M or P".

That's not a perfect fit here because we're not actually ordering things from 1 to 6.

When I think 3D grouping, I think "we're putting 6 people into three groups, but one person in each group is an M and one person in each group is a P".

That's a little bit closer to what we're doing.

However the "groups" in that task would still be the three periods, so they would still be the base of the diagram. We're taking these 6 people and pairing them off into three groups: first period, second period, third period

The best place to figure out what your main task is going to be is really the rules.

Grouping games have "Friend" and "Enemy" rules (two people MUST be together or CAN'T be together)

f.e. If you saw "Sipapu and Vale CANNOT be from the same period", that sounds like Grouping.

Ordering games have before/after comparative rules.

Rule 1 says S is earlier than Z.
Rule 2 says Q is not earlier than T.

So if there is ANY ordering, make the ordering the base of your diagram.

The only time we ever switch to making the PEOPLE (the six paintings, here) the base of the diagram is for "Options" games.

(In our books, we currently categorize them under Open Grouping, but they're not really grouping games. They just use the Open Board. I think we're going to give them their own label in future books)

"Options" games would say

Exactly six paintings, Q, R, S, T, V, and Z all have at least one of the following embellishments: demigloss, gold frame, and UV protection.

R has more embellishments than T
V and S have no embellishments in common

These games are rare (there are only about 6 of them ever), so you should almost never be putting the people as the base.

Hope this helps.