Q23 - Counselor: Contantly comparing oneself

[didi0504]

Thanks!

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

Hmmm. What's your question?

[itzakadoozie412]

Well Id like to know why C is incorrect and D is correct. I dont see how D is relevant because its talking about resulting from something other than the two conditions mentioned. Is this a mistaken correlation?

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

Let me explain this in two ways. First how i would eliminate answer choice (C) on the test and then a more reasoned explanation.

Using conditional logic if one concludes

A ---> C

then an assumption that says

B ---> ~C

is not going to do me any good. That's what's happening here. The argument concludes that these people will be self-accepting and accepting of others. Answer choice (C) says that these people will not be.

The argument does assume that one who is both not dismissive of others and not self-disparaging is self-accepting and accepting of others. Notice this is the negation of answer choice (C)

This argument is tricky in that it relies on more than one assumption and then creates a close answer choice around one assumption and the correct answer choice around another.

Think of the argument this way. If I go to the grocery store, I'll drive my car. So, if I don't go to the grocery store, I will not drive my car.

That argument fails to consider that I might drive my car for some other reason. Same thing is happening in this argument.

CMA ---> SD
CLA ---> DO
----------------
~CMA + CLA ---> ~SD + ~DO

Notation Key: CMA = compare to more able, CLA = compare to less able, SD = self-disparagement, DO = dismissive of others

[itzakadoozie412]

So C is valid but it's not the answer because it's not a flaw exhibited by the argument?

[clarafok]

hmm

so D is the correct answer because if self-disparagement and being dismissive of others result from something else, then people who refrain from comparing themselves may not be self-accepting and accepting of others??

thanks!

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

So C is valid but it's not the answer because it's not a flaw exhibited by the argument?

Not exactly. The argument does assume that one who is both not dismissive of others and not self-disparaging is self-accepting and accepting of others. Notice this is the negation of answer choice (C)

hmm

so D is the correct answer because if self-disparagement and being dismissive of others result from something else, then people who refrain from comparing themselves may not be self-accepting and accepting of others??

thanks!

Also not exactly. Try not to put it in if... then... form. Answer choice (D) is saying that self-disparagement may come from something other than comparing yourself to others. Here's an analogy:

If Peter buys a new boat, he'll overdraw his savings account. And, if he buys a new car he'll overdraw his savings account. Suppose I know he didn't buy a boat? Is it fair for me to conclude that he didn't overdraw his savings account? No. Maybe he bought a car and did overdraw his account.

Does that help clear this one up?

[cdjmarmon]

If we put it real abstract the arugment would be

A->B
C->D
--------
If you dont do A and you dont do C then you wont feel B and you wont feel D

Correct or Incorrect?

From this all I see is a suff/nec logic flaw and I do not see how D says that is the issue.

WAIT. I think I got it.

So the author says what I have above then concludes If you dont do A and you dont do C then you wont feel B and you wont feel D. So the author is assuming A and C are the only things that can cause B and D by saying if you dont do A and C then B and D will not result? Which means he isnt considering another cause, say E, can make can feel B and D?

I chose E by the way and I still dont see how its wrong lol.

[nemeshb]

I thought E was the best answer.

the conditions are that constantly comparing yourself to those one sees as more able or more succesfull or less able or less successful produces either self disparagement or dismissiveness of others.

The conclusion states that simply refraining from comparing yourself to others will MOST LIKELY make you self accepting and accepting of others. Nowhere in the conclusion does it close the gap that you will always compare yourself to less able or more able. I believed the argument's conclusion is taking this for granted that you will always see people in this way and therefore lead to self disparagement or dismissiveness. I guess I'm wrong.. could someone please explain why?

Also by saying most likely in the conclusion i don't see how it is completely overlooking the possibility that self disparagemnt and dismissiveness can result from something else. Doesn't most likely leave the possibility that self accepting and accepting of others might not always happen?

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

WAIT. I think I got it.

So the author says what I have above then concludes If you dont do A and you dont do C then you wont feel B and you wont feel D. So the author is assuming A and C are the only things that can cause B and D by saying if you dont do A and C then B and D will not result? Which means he isnt considering another cause, say E, can make can feel B and D?

You've got it!! Nice work cdjmarmon!

Answer choice (E) appears to be very tempting. So let me address it...

Not comparing oneself to others will ensure that one does not compare oneself to those one sees as more able or less able. The conclusion does ensure that neither sufficient condition in the evidence occurs. The conclusion does not close the gap that one might not always compare oneself to those one sees as more able or less able, that is correct. But that is not a flaw in the argument. The argument does not need to close that gap. The conclusion is simply that if one does not do either of the sufficient conditions (triggers) that neither of the necessary conditions (outcomes) will occur. But this fails to consider that the outcomes may occur as a result of something else - correctly identified in answer choice (D).

The argument does not assume that one will always see others as more able or less able, but rather offers those two experiences as triggers of certain results. If one compared oneself to someone one did not see as more or less able, the argument does not speak to that issue.

Let me know if that explanation still leaves you wondering about answer choice (E) though!

[ivette.sanchez1]

My question is that I didn't see the conclusion as stating that refraining from comparing yourself to others was the only way to ensure that you're more self-accepting and accepting of others.

The conclusion actually has more leeway than normal, in my opinion -- it's couched with "will most likely be, on the whole." That's different from a conclusion that absolutely ensures that those who refrain from comparing themselves will be more self-accepting and accepting of others.

What am I missing here?

[timmydoeslsat]

That is a reasonable question and a reasonable analysis.

My comment to you centers around the idea of what this argument has done.

CC X ---> SD
CC Y ---> DO
___________
Concludes something about not CC! Says that ~CC likely will lead to ~SD and ~DO.

We do not know what people are like who are ~CC!

The argument does overlook the possibility that the ~CC people also give us both SD and DO, just as the CC people did.

While it is not stating that ~CC ensure somethings, it is telling us a likelihood of a quality possessed by a ~CC. And it is overlooking the possibility that ~CC has as a quality both SD and DO.

[xinglipku]

That is a reasonable question and a reasonable analysis.

My comment to you centers around the idea of what this argument has done.

CC X ---> SD
CC Y ---> DO
___________
Concludes something about not CC! Says that ~CC likely will lead to ~SD and ~DO.

We do not know what people are like who are ~CC!

The argument does overlook the possibility that the ~CC people also give us both SD and DO, just as the CC people did.

While it is not stating that ~CC ensure somethings, it is telling us a likelihood of a quality possessed by a ~CC. And it is overlooking the possibility that ~CC has as a quality both SD and DO.

So am I right that if the stimulus was changed into "*only* those who don't compare themselves to others could be self-accepting and accepting of others", then (E) will be the correct answer?

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

So am I right that if the stimulus was changed into "*only* those who don't compare themselves to others could be self-accepting and accepting of others", then (E) will be the correct answer?

No, the conclusion would need to read that if you compare yourself to others, then you are self accepting or accepting of others in order for answer choice (E) to be correct. This would look like

C --> SA or AO

Notation Key: C - compare yourself to others, SA - self accepting, AO - accepting of others

Your statement would read

SA or AO --> ~C

I like the fact that you're working on trying to adjust the argument to see how other answer choices could be tempting! That will help you avoid tempting but wrong answers in the future.

[wj097]

The argument does not assume that one will always see others as more able or less able, but rather offers those two experiences as triggers of certain results. If one compared oneself to someone one did not see as more or less able, the argument does not speak to that issue.

Well I do think there is an assumption...if we don't assume, then we don't know what the effect would be of comparing to those who are at large equal to us ...maybe it would lead to something that just kills the argument who knows

So am I right that if the stimulus was changed into "*only* those who don't compare themselves to others could be self-accepting and accepting of others", then (E) will be the correct answer?

No, the conclusion would need to read that if you compare yourself to others, then you are self accepting or accepting of others in order for answer choice (E) to be correct. This would look like

C --> SA or AO

Notation Key: C - compare yourself to others, SA - self accepting, AO - accepting of others

Your statement would read

SA or AO --> ~C

I like the fact that you're working on trying to adjust the argument to see how other answer choices could be tempting! That will help you avoid tempting but wrong answers in the future.

I think (E) would be a correct answer choice if it read something like this.

It takes for granted that whenever one refrains from comparing oneself to others, one doesn't see them as more successful and more able than oneself or less successful and less able than oneself.. or the countrapositive.

[leroyjenkins]

Doesn't the conclusion acknowledge the possibility that self disparagement and being dismissive of others can result from something other than comparing oneself to others?

By saying "those who...refrain from comparing themselves to others will most likely be, on the whole, self-accepting and accepting of others," isn't it implied that there is a likelihood, albeit small, that people who refrain from such comparisons will not be self-accepting or accepting of others? Else, the conclusion would've replaced most likely with definitely. And wouldn't this mean that the argument in fact does not overlook the possibility stated in answer D, it in fact acknowledges it implicitly?

Can someone from Manhattan LSAT please answer?

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

Good question leoangelakos.

The argument presents one thing that causes self-disparagement and something else that causes self-loathing. It then goes on to say that if the cause is not present, the effect is likely not present either.

But is that necessarily true? Could there be a case when those who lack the triggering causes--comparing oneself to those one sees as more able and comparing oneself to those one sees as less able--are still likely to have the effect--self-disparagement and self-loathing? Sure, if other things also cause those effects, the conclusion doesn't work.

I think you're issue with this one is that answer choice (D) is stated weakly, so it doesn't seem that the argument can be said for sure to have assumed the opposite of answer choice (D). But the weakness is twofold--those who for the "most part" refrain; as well as those who will "most likely" be. Those in mind seem to play nicely with each other.

Furthermore, the question stem asks for a criticism the argument is "most vulnerable" to. Maybe there's some wiggle room if no other answer choice is more appealing.

[Crogati]

I just came across this question in Identify the Flaw Practice Set 2, and while I originally got this one wrong, I do understand why E is the answer. However, I have a general question about causation flaws vs conditonal logic flaws. Namely, what are the differences, if any, between the two? Until this point I thought of the concepts as mutually exclusive, but it seems that conditional logic is essentially causation (trigger/consequent and cause/effect)?

Also, what are the key signifiers of conditional logic? For example, is the key phrase that connotes conditional logic, repeated in the first and second sentences, "invariably leads to?"

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

You're pretty close. Causation implies conditionality. However, conditionality does not imply causation.

In this argument we can identify causation with the trigger words "leads to." Some other words that indicate causation:

due to
because of
as a result of
causes
leads to
as a consequence of
contributes to
stimulates
induces
creates
produces
if you want to ____ (effect), then you should _____ (cause)

The gap in this argument is a subtle but critical one. We know that X causes Y, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other factors that cause Y. In this case, there could be something other than constant comparisons that keeps people from being self-accepting and accepting of others. Answer choice (D) correctly point out this flaw.

Incorrect Answers
(A) doesn’t describe a flaw made by the argument, which describes the results of comparing oneself to both superior and inferior people. One could certainly do both comparisons at once.
(B) would be relevant if the conclusion said something like "There are no benefits to be found in comparing oneself to others." However, this isn’t relevant to the conclusion as it’s actually written, because we’re only concerned with two specific negative effects of comparing oneself to others.
(C) is just gibberish. How can you be self-disparaging and self-accepting at the same time? How can you be dismissive of others and accepting of them at the same time?
(E) misreads the premise. It never says it isn’t possible to compare oneself to people that one sees as equals. It simply shows the negative effects of comparing oneself to superiors/inferiors, and so concludes it’s a better idea not to compare oneself to others at all.

[DPCTE4325]

Hi Patrick, could you explain why C is wrong?

And would you approach this question via anti conclusion?

This is how I approached it.

Anti-Conclusion: how could I argue that even if one refrains from comparing themselves to others, they can still be NOT self-accepting (self disparaging) and NOT accepting of others (dismissive)?

Anticipation: well maybe self disparagement and dissmiveness can happen due to other factors like say having an unsupportive family and friends.

C was tempting because I thought the author does assume this. So I asked myself “if C is false, would this hurt the argument?” Would “even if one is both dismissive and self disparaging, one can still be self accepting and accepting of others” hurt the argument? I thought yes since I presumed the author to be saying that that comparing oneself & self-accepting and loving others are mutually exclusive.