To Ron!---After decreasing steadily

[shreerajp99]

Ron,you've said A doesnt make sense.What is the reason behind that?

Thanks,
Shreeraj

[RonPurewal]

Ron,you've said A doesnt make sense.What is the reason behind that?

Thanks,
Shreeraj

there's an explanation 3 lines below that comment.

[thapliyalabhi]

Ron,

Sorry to be digging into this post after a while.

I wanted to get some more insight into usage of 'essential' modifiers and what it can refer to within the sentence.

As you have highlighted, 'that' can refer to the nearest noun, or the complete noun phrase depending on the sentence. So contextually 'that' has a more wider scope of usage than 'which' within a sentence, moreover which is a non-essential phrase.

In April 1997, Hillary Rodham Clinton hosted three all-day White House scientific conference on new findings that[ indicate/indicates a child’s acquiring language, thinking, and emotional skills as an active process that may be largely completed before age three.

that should refer to "conference on new findings" or "new findings"? based on what 'that' refers to the verb indicate/indicates changes.

Please explain.

"that"-modifiers modify nouns, not actions.
however, these modifiers have much more latitude regarding where they can be placed. not only are they routinely allowed to modify either nouns or noun phrases, but they can even modify nouns from which they are separated by a verb+object or by a prepositional phrase.
for one official problem on which this happens in the correct answer, see DIAGNOSTIC problem #50 (not problem #50 in the regular sentence correction section) in OG12.

so, in the above sentence, you have to use your understanding of the meaning of the sentence (together with your own common sense) to figure out exactly which noun is being modified by the "that"-modifier.
in that example, "findings" is the most logical referent for the modifier, since it's the scientific findings (and not the conference) that indicate these things.

--

note that the above discussion applies only to MODIFIERS starting with "that".
the word "that" can appear in a whole host of other situations that are nothing like those modifiers.

Sorry for bringing this up again. But, I have a doubt in the OA of this SC question.

In April 1997, Hillary Rodham Clinton hosted an all-day White House scientific conference on new findings that indicates a child’s acquiring language, thinking, and emotional skills as an active process that may be largely completed before age three.

OA-->indicating that a child’s acquisition of language, thinking, and emotional skills is

My doubt-->Is indicating correctly referring to the "new findings" here. It appears like referring to Hillary Clinton. Could we have an even better correction.

[RonPurewal]

I have a doubt in the OA of this SC question.

officially correct answers are not wrong!
do not question officially correct answers!
far too many students on this forum make the mistake of questioning the correct answers; please note that doing so is a complete waste of your time and effort. i.e., exactly 0% of the time that you spend posting "isn't this official answer wrong?" is productive, and exactly 100% of that time is wasted.

"is this correct?" is NEVER a productive question to ask about one of GMAC's correct answers -- the answer is always yes.
"is this wrong?" / "is this X type of error?" is NEVER a productive question to ask about one of GMAC's correct answers -- the answer is always no.

instead, the questions you should be asking about correct official answers, if you don't understand them, are:
"why is this correct?"
"how does this work?"
"what understanding am i lacking that i need to understand this choice?"

this is a small, but hugely significant, change to your way of thinking -- you will suddenly find it much easier to understand the format, style, and conventions of the official problems if you dispose of the idea that they might be wrong.

My doubt-->Is indicating correctly referring to the "new findings" here. It appears like referring to Hillary Clinton. Could we have an even better correction.

you may want to review this kind of modifier (no comma + "ing"), because it can't refer to hillary clinton.
this kind of modifier must describe the noun (or noun phrase) that's in front of it.

[ashish-mohan]

this kind of modifier must describe the noun (or noun phrase) that's in front of it.

Hello Ron, had a question on a correct official sentence that uses this construction:

Like the great navigators who first sailed around the Earth gathering information about its size and the curvature of its surface, astronomers have made new observations that show with startling directness the large-scale geometry of the universe.

gathering information about its size is modifying navigators here, though navigators is neither the noun nor the noun-phrase in front of gathering.

Would appreciate if you could clarify.

[RonPurewal]

this kind of modifier must describe the noun (or noun phrase) that's in front of it.

Hello Ron, had a question on a correct official sentence that uses this construction:

Like the great navigators who first sailed around the Earth gathering information about its size and the curvature of its surface, astronomers have made new observations that show with startling directness the large-scale geometry of the universe.

gathering information about its size is modifying navigators here, though navigators is neither the noun nor the noun-phrase in front of gathering.

Would appreciate if you could clarify.

well, in that case you have 2 modifiers following "navigators" that are both trying to describe it:
... who first sailed around the Earth
... gathering information about xxxx
ideally, you'd stick both of those right on "navigators"... but, alas, we have to write sentences in a straight line, so that's not possible.
so, navigators + modifier + modifier is about as good as this is going to get.

[bodhisattwabiswas]

if you want an official example, see #50 in the OG DIAGNOSTIC section.
i can't quote the whole problem here, but the relevant excerpt of the correct answer is something like
a way of doing xxxxxxxxxxxxx on the internet that...
in which "that..." modifies "way"

thanks for the explanation...
I like to know if the #50 in the OG DIAGNOSTIC section were like --- "By developing xxxxxxxxxxxxx hope to create a standardized way of distributing songs and full-length recordings on the platform that will protect copyright holders and foil the many audio pirates who copy and distribute digital music illegally.", then 'that' would modify 'way' or 'platform'?

[RonPurewal]

if you want an official example, see #50 in the OG DIAGNOSTIC section.
i can't quote the whole problem here, but the relevant excerpt of the correct answer is something like
a way of doing xxxxxxxxxxxxx on the internet that...
in which "that..." modifies "way"

thanks for the explanation...
I like to know if the #50 in the OG DIAGNOSTIC section were like --- "By developing xxxxxxxxxxxxx hope to create a standardized way of distributing songs and full-length recordings on the platform that will protect copyright holders and foil the many audio pirates who copy and distribute digital music illegally.", then 'that' would modify 'way' or 'platform'?

The meaning of "platform" is not clear, so it's impossible to tell.

The point is that "that" can go either way, as long as the intended meaning is clear.

E.g.,

New treatments for rare diseases that have not yet been approved by the U.S. government ...
--> here, it's obvious that "that" is describing "new treatments (for rare diseases)". The government doesn't approve diseases, so there is no ambiguity.

but
New treatments for rare diseases that affect the nation's rapidly increasing elderly population ...
--> here, it's equally clear that "that" is describing "rare diseases". It's the diseases that are affecting older people.

[bodhisattwabiswas]

if you want an official example, see #50 in the OG DIAGNOSTIC section.
i can't quote the whole problem here, but the relevant excerpt of the correct answer is something like
a way of doing xxxxxxxxxxxxx on the internet that...
in which "that..." modifies "way"

thanks for the explanation...
I like to know if the #50 in the OG DIAGNOSTIC section were like --- "By developing xxxxxxxxxxxxx hope to create a standardized way of distributing songs and full-length recordings on the platform that will protect copyright holders and foil the many audio pirates who copy and distribute digital music illegally.", then 'that' would modify 'way' or 'platform'?

The meaning of "platform" is not clear, so it's impossible to tell.

The point is that "that" can go either way, as long as the intended meaning is clear.

E.g.,

New treatments for rare diseases that have not yet been approved by the U.S. government ...
--> here, it's obvious that "that" is describing "new treatments (for rare diseases)". The government doesn't approve diseases, so there is no ambiguity.

but
New treatments for rare diseases that affect the nation's rapidly increasing elderly population ...
--> here, it's equally clear that "that" is describing "rare diseases". It's the diseases that are affecting older people.

thanks a lot for the explanation...

[RonPurewal]

Sure.

[Suapplle]

Hi,Ron, I am not clear about the use of "having done",please clarify,thank you very much!

[RonPurewal]

Hi,Ron, I am not clear about the use of "having done",please clarify,thank you very much!

I can't tell (a) what you are asking, or (b) what you are quoting. (The words "having done" don't appear in this problem.)

Please quote a specific part of the problem, and ask a specific question. Thanks.

[Suapplle]

Hi,Ron, I am not clear about the use of "having done",please clarify,thank you very much!

I can't tell (a) what you are asking, or (b) what you are quoting. (The words "having done" don't appear in this problem.)

Please quote a specific part of the problem, and ask a specific question. Thanks.

Ron, I am sorry not to express my problem clearly.
here is my question:

the percentage of students in the United States finishing high school or having earned equivalency diplomas increased in the last three years of the decade

besides the split you said in the thread--"having earned" or "having finished" have the wrong meaning
in this case, can the "having earned" modify the "students"?
a grammar book I read said that:
"the perfective aspect cannot usually be expressed in the finitive clause.
wrong:The man having won the race is my brother
correct:The man who has won the race is my brother"
is the rule correct?whether the "having done" can modify a noun in a finitive clause or not?
please clarify,thanks

[RonPurewal]

I have no clue what "perfective" and "finitive" are.

It's far easier to notice that "finishing" isn't parallel to "having earned".
You'd want either
having finished / having earned
or
finishing / earning.

[nghiaac2002]

hi instructors,
I am just wondering why we don't need to have the "from" at the end of the sentence in the correct answer?
Thank you