The loan company

[zhongshanlh]

Ron said:
//////
if you substitute "such a group" for "a group", then that's incorrect, because "such" wouldn't be referring to anything.
///////
I understand that we can use "SUCH A NOUN" only when NOUN exists in an early place.

"such a group" in E is wrong because there is no word " group" in the early part of the sentence

the following must be correct:
I like the group of students and such a group can be a good community

Ron, experts, pls, confirm my above thinking. Thank you.

as long as you mention some specific "X" earlier in the sentence, then "such an X" is fine, yes.

another example:
i have no problem with using a standard geometry textbook; indeed, such a book is helpful in providing ready-made sets of practice problems.
--> "such a book" is legitimate because the sentence has mentioned a particular book (namely, a standard geometry textbook).

sorry but i am also confused about the error with "such a group" here.
Ron, u say that"as long as you mention some specific "X" earlier in the sentence, then "such an X" is fine, yes."
and in this sentence, i think that the words "a group" are meant to refer to the word "borrowers" in the preceding clause,so i think the use of such here is correct here.
pls clarify my thought...thank you so much!

[RonPurewal]

ok, here's more specifically how it works: "such an X" only makes sense when the concept of "X" could theoretically encompass many possibilities, of which "such an X" is only one.
i.e., if you have already given the exact, unique definition of X, then "such an X" makes no sense.

e.g.
i have no problem with using a standard geometry textbook; indeed, such a book is helpful in providing ready-made sets of practice problems.
CORRECT
--> this makes sense, because there isn't just one standard geometry textbook. so, there are many items fitting that description; "such a book" stands for any one such item.

but...
fewer churches than ever before are using readings from the King James Bible, because the archaic language in such a book is difficult for many parishioners to understand.
INCORRECT
--> The King James Bible is a unique book; it does not represent a broader class of possibilities from which we might choose one to use as an example. so, this doesn't make sense.
in contexts like this one, you could use something like "this/that book" -- or you could use an appropriate modifier, as in the correct answer to the problem in this thread.

[zhongshanlh]

ok, here's more specifically how it works: "such an X" only makes sense when the concept of "X" could theoretically encompass many possibilities, of which "such an X" is only one.
i.e., if you have already given the exact, unique definition of X, then "such an X" makes no sense.

e.g.
i have no problem with using a standard geometry textbook; indeed, such a book is helpful in providing ready-made sets of practice problems.
CORRECT
--> this makes sense, because there isn't just one standard geometry textbook. so, there are many items fitting that description; "such a book" stands for any one such item.

but...
fewer churches than ever before are using readings from the King James Bible, because the archaic language in such a book is difficult for many parishioners to understand.
INCORRECT
--> The King James Bible is a unique book; it does not represent a broader class of possibilities from which we might choose one to use as an example. so, this doesn't make sense.
in contexts like this one, you could use something like "this/that book" -- or you could use an appropriate modifier, as in the correct answer to the problem in this thread.

WOW,the issue is subtle here...
so, in this PREP problem--->"borrowers with proven records of not paying back their loans on time",in this phrase, i think the with phrase narrows the scope of borrowers,thus the whole phrase represents a specific kind of borrowers here and we do not need such any more.
am i thinking right?
and thank you for ur excellent explanation,Ron, i am really a big fan of you in this and the beatthegmat forum.

[tim]

we do not need "such" because we are referring to a specific group and not to examples similar to that or any other group. the narrowing of the category of borrowers has nothing to do with it..

[asad.alikhan]

Ron,

I selected the right answer because the others were worse but my confusion is that even in the right answer "a group" and "collectively" are mentioned

Aren't using both the words together redundant.. ? I mean they convey the same meaning..

does that mean redundancy itself isn't a definite rule to eliminate any answer choice ?

[RonPurewal]

Ron,

I selected the right answer because the others were worse but my confusion is that even in the right answer "a group" and "collectively" are mentioned

Aren't using both the words together redundant.. ? I mean they convey the same meaning..

does that mean redundancy itself isn't a definite rule to eliminate any answer choice ?

the "collectively" here isn't really redundant, because it's clarifying the idea that the given name is for the entire group.

for instance, the Mods were part of the 1960s London fashion scene, but, if you had even one of them, you'd still refer to him/her as "a Mod".
...so, a group collectively known as the Mods wouldn't make sense here, because that's not a collective name; it's a name that applies to every individual in the group.

see the difference? here, the individuals are not called "the subprime market"; that name doesn't make sense except in reference to the entire collective.

[asad.alikhan]

Ron,

I selected the right answer because the others were worse but my confusion is that even in the right answer "a group" and "collectively" are mentioned

Aren't using both the words together redundant.. ? I mean they convey the same meaning..

does that mean redundancy itself isn't a definite rule to eliminate any answer choice ?

the "collectively" here isn't really redundant, because it's clarifying the idea that the given name is for the entire group.

for instance, the Mods were part of the 1960s London fashion scene, but, if you had even one of them, you'd still refer to him/her as "a Mod".
...so, a group collectively known as the Mods wouldn't make sense here, because that's not a collective name; it's a name that applies to every individual in the group.

see the difference? here, the individuals are not called "the subprime market"; that name doesn't make sense except in reference to the entire collective.

Thanks Ron ! Exam in less than a week.. Hope I score ! Indeed You have played the most critical part in my understanding of SC concepts and test taking strategies..

[tim]

Glad to hear it, and good luck on your exam!

[RonPurewal]

It's best to drop the concrete noun/abstract noun difference, and just realize that this kind of modifier can describe both kinds of things"”a noun, or a larger construction behind the comma.

In fact, this modifier can often have both functions even with the same noun heading it.

E.g.,

Many professional statisticians use least squares, a method commonly taught in high-school statistics courses.
Here, "least squares" is a statistical method.

Biologists often estimate wildlife populations by tagging animals, releasing them, and then tracking the fraction of subsequently observed animals that are tagged"”a method that has not been substantively changed by advances in technology.
Here, "a method" describes the entire lengthy description of biologists' methodology that precedes it. (The dash serves the same purpose as the comma in the first example; it's only here for added clarity, since the sentence already contains so many commas that another one could be confusing.)

I first wrote that whole bit about concrete and abstract nouns as a response to someone's question about this kind of modifier. It was a completely spontaneous analysis; I'd never thought explicitly about how this modifier works before that (though I was familiar with it).
Like other on-the-spot explanations, that one was unnecessarily limiting.

[RonPurewal]

Ron, thanks for you wonderful explanation.
Here I got a long sentence.
----------------------
Most insomnia is not so much an illness or a physical condition but symptomatic of another problem, maybe simply a reaction to certain medications, anxiety about travel, or stress before a job interview.
----------------------
Do you agree that the 'a reaction' ,' anxiety' , or 'stress' modifies the 'another problem' preceding the comma?

Yes. In context, it's clear that these are three examples of "another problem".

Where did you get this sentence? It seems unlikely that you made it up yourself.

[RonPurewal]

Actually it's a OA of a hard SC problem form a banned source in MGMAT forum I think.
In China, we called the problem set GWD.

ok. thanks.

[thanghnvn]

let look "such" in Oxford dictionary. one of its meaning is " of the type already mentioned". this point means"
- you mentioned a type
- then, you mention a thing of that type

so, the meaning is already in the dictionary.
if we want to use "such a group" , we have to mention a type of group earlier. yes, it is hard .

[thanghnvn]

[quote="BG"]The loan company announced it would soon lend money to borrowers with proven records of their not paying back their loans on time, collectively known as the subprime lending market.

A.Of their not paying back their loans on time,
B.Of not paying back their loans on time, a group
C.Of not paying back their loans on time, with such a group
D.That they do not pay back their loans on time,
E.That they do not pay back their loans on time, such a group

B shows us a sentence pattern (called resumptive sentence, but forget the name), in which, because the noun modification is far from the noun modified, the modified noun itself is repeated or a new noun is inserted to make clear to which noun this modification is refering.

Am I right?, pls confirm

[RonPurewal]

I don't know this terminology"”nor is there any benefit to you in trying to learn it.

That description is a fairly accurate summary of what's happening in this sentence. However, it's easier"”and infinitely more productive"”to just look at the correct sentence and internalize how it works.
If you do that, you'll be able to recognize future instances at once. If you use dictionary definitions instead, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for you to do so.

[JaneC643]

Ron, thanks for you wonderful explanation.
Here I got a long sentence.
----------------------
Most insomnia is not so much an illness or a physical condition but symptomatic of another problem, maybe simply a reaction to certain medications, anxiety about travel, or stress before a job interview.
----------------------
Do you agree that the 'a reaction' ,' anxiety' , or 'stress' modifies the 'another problem' preceding the comma?

Yes. In context, it's clear that these are three examples of "another problem".

Where did you get this sentence? It seems unlikely that you made it up yourself.

Hi, Ron, how the sentence"Most insomnia is not so much an illness or a physical condition but symptomatic of another problem, maybe simply a reaction to certain medications, anxiety about travel, or stress before a job interview" is right? We use the structure"not so much A but B", but I think the right one is " not so much A as B". Even if the structure "not so much A but B" is right, the A (an illness or a physical condition) is not parallel with B(symptomatic), the "symptomatic" is an adjective here. No matter how I tried to understand it, it is a weird sentence to me.
Thank you for clarifying!