The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus valley

[RonPurewal]

E) The second pronoun "it" is ambiguous: does it refer to the "empire" or to the "script"?

Hi Dan,

As per Manhattan SC guide 4th edition, in these type of scenarios...the next "it" refers to the noun to which previous "it" refered....

so shouldn't it refer to "empire"...so it should be case of wrong pronoun rather than ambiguous one ?

Thanks
Mohit

no, sorry, dan's previous post is actually mistaken; the pronoun "it" in (e) is correct.
it CANNOT refer to "empire" in this case, because "empire" is the subject of the sentence. if we were going to have a pronoun in this spot that referred to "empire", we would have to use itself.
(note that "bringing with it" is exempt from this rule, because it's a special idiomatic construction that doesn't require a reflexive "-self" pronoun. for instance, i can say i brought the groceries with me; i don't have to say "myself" in this special case.)

the principal problem with (e) is that it's written in parallel structure - which it shouldn't be.
the current reading indicates that the empire brought with it the script, and that the empire also "derived from it ...".
that's clearly not what we mean to say here, so this choice is wrong.
the pronoun in this choice is NOT wrong.

[RonPurewal]

Finally, the subject "northern and southern Indian alphabets" is unclear: are there several alphabets, or only one of each?

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the awesome explanation.....

Just one small query....

Can you please tell more about the above quoted thing...and how the same is resolved in the correct answer i.e. C.....I could see only one addition in C i.e. "the" wrt to the subject is concerned....

Can you please tell how the addition of "the" resolves the above problem.

Thanks
Mohit

hi -

the meanings are different. if you just say "northern and southern indian alphabets", then it seems like you're just talking about some northern and some southern indian alphabets - i.e., nothing necessarily complete or exhaustive.
if you use "the", then you're talking about THE alphabets, i.e., all of them.

in this case, both meanings are legitimate (although the second makes more sense - the first would be an unnecessarily weak/awkward/unclear statement, if that were truly the intended meaning).
i don't really see any evidence that you should choose the meaning with "the" over the meaning without it, but, luckily, you don't have to: remember that correctness always wins over clarity.
(a) is incorrect for at least two other reasons, so, therefore, you don't have to worry about the battle of meanings.

[goelmohit2002]

E) The second pronoun "it" is ambiguous: does it refer to the "empire" or to the "script"?

Hi Dan,

As per Manhattan SC guide 4th edition, in these type of scenarios...the next "it" refers to the noun to which previous "it" refered....

so shouldn't it refer to "empire"...so it should be case of wrong pronoun rather than ambiguous one ?

Thanks
Mohit

no, sorry, dan's previous post is actually mistaken; the pronoun "it" in (e) is correct.
it CANNOT refer to "empire" in this case, because "empire" is the subject of the sentence. if we were going to have a pronoun in this spot that referred to "empire", we would have to use itself.
(note that "bringing with it" is exempt from this rule, because it's a special idiomatic construction that doesn't require a reflexive "-self" pronoun. for instance, i can say i brought the groceries with me; i don't have to say "myself" in this special case.)

the principal problem with (e) is that it's written in parallel structure - which it shouldn't be.
the current reading indicates that the empire brought with it the script, and that the empire also "derived from it ...".
that's clearly not what we mean to say here, so this choice is wrong.
the pronoun in this choice is NOT wrong.

Awesome Ron !

Thanks a lot !

[goelmohit2002]

Finally, the subject "northern and southern Indian alphabets" is unclear: are there several alphabets, or only one of each?

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the awesome explanation.....

Just one small query....

Can you please tell more about the above quoted thing...and how the same is resolved in the correct answer i.e. C.....I could see only one addition in C i.e. "the" wrt to the subject is concerned....

Can you please tell how the addition of "the" resolves the above problem.

Thanks
Mohit

hi -

the meanings are different. if you just say "northern and southern indian alphabets", then it seems like you're just talking about some northern and some southern indian alphabets - i.e., nothing necessarily complete or exhaustive.
if you use "the", then you're talking about THE alphabets, i.e., all of them.

in this case, both meanings are legitimate (although the second makes more sense - the first would be an unnecessarily weak/awkward/unclear statement, if that were truly the intended meaning).
i don't really see any evidence that you should choose the meaning with "the" over the meaning without it, but, luckily, you don't have to: remember that correctness always wins over clarity.
(a) is incorrect for at least two other reasons, so, therefore, you don't have to worry about the battle of meanings.

Thanks Ron !

[RonPurewal]

you got it

[prajeen_v]

Hello Ron,
I know it was said multiple times that we should not question correct answers in GMAT. But, i have a question regarding the correct answer choice C.

will the choice C be right if it was written in the way given below?

[C modified] with it the Aramaic script, from which derived both the northern and the

In other words, why the present tense (derive) is used in the correct choice, C?

thanks.

[RonPurewal]

Hello Ron,
I know it was said multiple times that we should not question correct answers in GMAT. But, i have a question regarding the correct answer choice C.

will the choice C be right if it was written in the way given below?

[C modified] with it the Aramaic script, from which derived both the northern and the

In other words, why the present tense (derive) is used in the correct choice, C?

thanks.

the fact that those alphabets are derived from ("are derived from" = "derive from") the aramaic script is not a past occurrence; it is still true today. the use of the past tense here would therefore be wrong, because it would imply that this is no longer the case.

for instance:
medieval physicians were the first to discover that blood circulates through the human body. --> correct (because blood still circulates through the human body today; this is a timeless fact)

medieval physicians were the first to discover that blood circulated through the human body. --> incorrect, unless today's humans no longer have circulating blood.

[thanghnvn]

I agree C

But in C, "from which drive both..."

should be

"from which both a and b drive..."

why in C, "drive" goes before subject.

Pls,explain, help.

[tim]

it goes before the subject because it can. :) that's just something to keep in mind about this type of construction..

[gmatwork]

As Stacey is locked securely in my basement for the evening, it looks like you are stuck with me. :lol: First, a reprint of the question:

The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus valley in the fifth century B.C, bringing the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and southern Indian alphabets.

A) same as above

B) the Aramaic script with it, and from which deriving both the northern and the

C) with it the Aramaic script, from which derive both the northern and the

D) with it the Aramaic script, from which derives both northern and

E) with it the Aramaic script, and deriving from it both the northern and the

My explanation:

A) "from which" seems to incorrectly refer to the empire (referenced by the pronoun "it") rather than to the script. Also, the singular verb "was derived" does not agree in number with the plural subject "northern and southern Indian alphabets". Finally, the subject "northern and southern Indian alphabets" is unclear: are there several alphabets, or only one of each?

B) "and" creates a lack of connection between the two parts of the sentence. Additionally, "deriving" is an incorrect verb tense.

C) CORRECT. "From which" correctly refers to the script. Additionally, "derive," a plural verb, correctly agrees with the plural subject "the Northern and the Southern Indian alphabets."

D) "derives," a singular verb, does not agree with the plural subject "Northern and Southern Indian alphabets."

E) The second pronoun "it" is ambiguous: does it refer to the "empire" or to the "script"? Additionally, the original intent of the sentence is significantly changed in meaning.

Hope that helps!

In B when you say "and" creates a lack of connection between two actions. Is this because when we join two actions with "and" it means that those two actions are independent of each other, these action are not related

If we use other construct such as

Action (in independent clause), Action in ing modifier

Two actions are related in to each other with a cause and effect relation.

[RonPurewal]

In B when you say "and" creates a lack of connection between two actions. Is this because when we join two actions with "and" it means that those two actions are independent of each other, these action are not related

that's basically the idea, unless "and" is followed by an adverb that indicates a relationship.
for instance, if X and Y are clauses that describe events such that X actually caused Y, then X and Y would be inappropriate, but X and thus Y or X and so Y would be fine.

If we use other construct such as

Action (in independent clause), Action in ing modifier

Two actions are related in to each other with a cause and effect relation.

that's the basic idea, but the relationship doesn't have to be cause and effect. it can also just state that something happened during, or as a sub-component of, some other action: e.g., Ron ran down the street, yelling and waving his arms.

[tim60288]

Hi Ron,

I'd like to ask...
(A) the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and
(C) with it the Aramaic script, from which derive both the northern and the

Saw some explanation that
A) which means Empire
But C) which mean script....
Not really understand this, please help : (

[RonPurewal]

Hi Ron,

I'd like to ask...
(A) the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and
(C) with it the Aramaic script, from which derive both the northern and the

Saw some explanation that
A) which means Empire
But C) which mean script....
Not really understand this, please help : (

in (a) they are attempting to apply "which" to "it" (which, in turn, stands for the empire).
that's not really a thing, though. the reality is actually a lot simpler: you can't use "which" for a pronoun. so strike (a).

for the moment i'll assume that you understand (c), since that is a perfect textbook example of "which" (modifying the noun that's right next to it). if not, go ahead and ask.

[Tadashi]

Hi Ron.
a question about option C and D.

From Aramaic script derive both the northern and the southern Indian alphabets. it's inverted sentence, right?

My example:

At the center of Tokyo stands a beautiful building called Sky Tree.

Right?

ARIGATO
Tadashi.

[RonPurewal]

Correct.