The 32 species that make up the dolphin family

[violetwind]

The Question is as following, could any forum admin put this question in the first post of this thread?

The 32 species that make up the dolphin family are closely related to whales and in fact include the animal known as the killer whale, which can grow to be 30 feet long and is famous for its aggressive hunting pods.
(A) include the animal known as the killer whale,which can grow to be 30 feet long and is
(B) include the animal known as the killer whale,growing as big as 30 feet long and
(C) include the animal known as the killer whale,growing up to 30 feet long and being
(D) includes the animal known as the killer whale,which can grow as big as 30 feet long and is
(E) includes the animal known as the killer whale,which can grow to be 30 feet long and it is

[RonPurewal]

done, thanks.

[violetwind]

only (a) remains. there are other issues, too; for instance, the "and" at the end of (b) introduces false parallelism, "being" in (c) is problematic, and "it" in (e) violates parallelism. post back if you don't understand any of these.

Hi,Ron,

Could you explain why being in (c) is problematic?

Thank you !

Hi Ron, this quesion haven't got answered, plus, about the problem you mentioned about B, could you give detailed explanations all together? Thank you!

REDUNDANCY

you don't say both "as big as..." and "long" in the same sentence. you can use only one of these words, both of which express the same idea (i.e., length or size).

this kills b/d.

As OG says "'as big as'is an idiomatically incorrect expression of the comparison" I wanna confirm, if "as big as 30 feet" is completely wrong, or ,as you said, it's a purly redundancy which means we can say either"as big as 30 feet" or "to be 30 feet long",but cannot combine them together.

Could you help me understand what "incorrect expression of the comparison" is about?

Thank you very much~

Hi Ron,

you skipped my question..........my bad, I should post the orignal SC problem before my questions~~~

[violetwind]

Hi Ron,

Could you please take a look at my questions?

[RonPurewal]

As OG says "'as big as'is an idiomatically incorrect expression of the comparison" I wanna confirm, if "as big as 30 feet" is completely wrong, or ,as you said, it's a purly redundancy which means we can say either"as big as 30 feet" or "to be 30 feet long",but cannot combine them together.

read here
post40399.html#p40399

the OG explanation is an attempt to express the same idea without using examples. that's very hard to do, hence the awkwardness of that explanation.

[saptadeepc]

The principal feature of the redesigned checks is a series of printed instructions that the company hopes will help merchants confirm a check's authenticity, which includes reminders to watch the endorsement, compare signatures, and view the watermark while holding the check to the light.

which includes reminders to watch the endorsement, compare signatures, and view

which include reminders for watching the endorsement, to compare signatures and view

by including reminders for watching the endorsement, comparing signatures, and viewing

including reminders to watch the endorsement, comparing signatures and viewing

including reminders to watch the endorsement, compare signatures, and view

ah, yes.

important:
"INCLUDING" is an EXCEPTION to the otherwise robust rules for comma+ing modifiers.

when you see "comma + including", you should think of "including" as a preposition, not as an -ing modifier. therefore, "including X" will become a prepositional phrase that describes the stuff preceding the comma.

thanks for pointing this out / calling it to our attention -- we'll be sure to include it in our revised unit on modifiers in the course.

Second one:
Many financial experts believe that policy makers at the Federal Reserve, now viewing the economy as balanced between moderate growth and low inflation, are almost certain to leave interest rates unchanged for the foreseeable future.

Reserve, now viewing the economy as balanced between moderate growth and low inflation, are

Reserve, now viewing the economy to be balanced between that of moderate growth and low inflation and are

Reserve who, now viewing the economy as balanced between moderate growth and low inflation, are

Reserve, who now view the economy to be balanced between that of moderate growth and low inflation, will be

Reserve, which now views the economy to be balanced between moderate growth and low inflation, is


Thank you in advance!

the reasoning doesn't apply to this one; those rules are only for comma+ing modifiers THAT FOLLOW CLAUSES.

you can ignore "Many financial experts believe that" -- that's just a "warmup" that doesn't affect the structure or grammar of the following clause. (test this statement by sticking it in front of any sentence at all).
therefore, that's just a nonessential modifier modifying the noun "policy makers at the FR". there's no clause to modify, so the rules about modifying clauses don't apply.

good questions.

Ron,

If I get this correctly

A prepositional modifier before a comma modifies the whole sentence after it, and not just the noun after the comma

and

A prepositional modifier after a comma modifies the noun just preceding the comma and not the whole sentence that precedes the comma.

[messi10]

Hi saptadeepc,

Ron,

If I get this correctly

A prepositional modifier before a comma modifies the whole sentence after it, and not just the noun after the comma

and

A prepositional modifier after a comma modifies the noun just preceding the comma and not the whole sentence that precedes the comma.

Ron will need to confirm this but my understanding is that prepositional modifiers are not fixed. They can be either adverbial or adjectival i.e. they can be either modify the action of the clause (verb) or a noun.

Here is a post that discusses the issue: many-daring-vacationers-who-participate-in-guided-t3770.html

Regards

Sunil

[RonPurewal]

Hi saptadeepc,

Ron,

If I get this correctly

A prepositional modifier before a comma modifies the whole sentence after it, and not just the noun after the comma

and

A prepositional modifier after a comma modifies the noun just preceding the comma and not the whole sentence that precedes the comma.

Ron will need to confirm this but my understanding is that prepositional modifiers are not fixed. They can be either adverbial or adjectival i.e. they can be either modify the action of the clause (verb) or a noun.

that is correct.
for instance,
i read the book on the table.
i read the book on the subway.
both correct!
in the first, "on the table" modifies the NOUN "book";
in the second, "on the subway" modifies the ACTION "read the book".

however, if you see CLAUSE + comma + PREP PHRASE, then the prep phrase should modify the action of the whole clause.

[saptadeepc]

Hi saptadeepc,

Ron,

If I get this correctly

A prepositional modifier before a comma modifies the whole sentence after it, and not just the noun after the comma

and

A prepositional modifier after a comma modifies the noun just preceding the comma and not the whole sentence that precedes the comma.

Ron will need to confirm this but my understanding is that prepositional modifiers are not fixed. They can be either adverbial or adjectival i.e. they can be either modify the action of the clause (verb) or a noun.

that is correct.
for instance,
i read the book on the table.
i read the book on the subway.
both correct!
in the first, "on the table" modifies the NOUN "book";
in the second, "on the subway" modifies the ACTION "read the book".

however, if you see CLAUSE + comma + PREP PHRASE, then the prep phrase should modify the action of the whole clause.

Ron -

In the following two questions prepositional phrases are placed in the way

CLAUSE + comma + PREP PHRASE

and the Prepositional Phrase modifies the noun just before the comma in both cases.

1. plants-are-more-effi-cient-at-acquiring-carbon-than-are-fung-t13336.html

2. post56298.html?hilit=sunspot%20cycles#p56298

So, can we conclude that prepositional phrases can modify noun as well as the whole sentence even if they come after the comma ?

Please let me know if I 'am missing something here!

thanks

[RonPurewal]

So, can we conclude that prepositional phrases can modify noun as well as the whole sentence even if they come after the comma ?

Please let me know if I 'am missing something here!

thanks

the sentence to which you linked is indeed an exception, but note that this exception is irrelevant to the process of solving the problem.
in that problem, the issue is the fact that certain words are moved around; the issue is not correct/incorrect use of a modifier. you just need to recognize that "carbon", not "fungi", should be placed as close as possible to the words that describe it.

[zhongshanlh]

Hi Ron.
Thanks a lot for all the explaination...just one doubt, can I consider "grow to be" as idiom here?

Thanks

well, sure -- in this sense that you can consider it a legitimate wording. (it HAS to be a legitimate wording, since it appears in a correct answer.)

--

note, however, that this is not the issue here -- the choices that say "as big as 30 feet long" are eliminated because they can be viewed as either
(1) redundant -- containing both "big" and "long"
or
(2) literally untrue -- if you write "as big as X", then X must be the actual thing whose size is under consideration. for instance, "as big as a truck" makes sense, but "as big as the size of a truck" doesn't (since the size doesn't have a size).

same is true for "faster than the speed of...", "taller than the height of...", etc. -- all wrong, for either of these two reasons

hi , Ron ,having read what u have posted before, i am still a little confused about this question and i want to make it totally clear to myself.

in the GMAT, are we allowed to use the kind of expression such as "as long as 30 feet"???

in this kind of phrase, there is no redundancy any more(because i have already eliminated "long"), however , i think that this kind of phrase still doesn't make sense, because 30 feet is not an actual thing that does have a length, please make it clear whether we should regard this phrase as correct or incorrect???

thank u in advance

[jnelson0612]

Hi Ron.
Thanks a lot for all the explaination...just one doubt, can I consider "grow to be" as idiom here?

Thanks

well, sure -- in this sense that you can consider it a legitimate wording. (it HAS to be a legitimate wording, since it appears in a correct answer.)

--

note, however, that this is not the issue here -- the choices that say "as big as 30 feet long" are eliminated because they can be viewed as either
(1) redundant -- containing both "big" and "long"
or
(2) literally untrue -- if you write "as big as X", then X must be the actual thing whose size is under consideration. for instance, "as big as a truck" makes sense, but "as big as the size of a truck" doesn't (since the size doesn't have a size).

same is true for "faster than the speed of...", "taller than the height of...", etc. -- all wrong, for either of these two reasons

hi , Ron ,having read what u have posted before, i am still a little confused about this question and i want to make it totally clear to myself.

in the GMAT, are we allowed to use the kind of expression such as "as long as 30 feet"???

in this kind of phrase, there is no redundancy any more(because i have already eliminated "long"), however , i think that this kind of phrase still doesn't make sense, because 30 feet is not an actual thing that does have a length, please make it clear whether we should regard this phrase as correct or incorrect???

thank u in advance

We would be allowed to say "as long as 30 feet" because there is no redundancy, as you stated.

You're right: 30 feet is not an actual thing that has length--on the contrary, it IS a length! So there is no lack of logic here. If I tell you that my motorhome is "as long as 30 feet" that makes perfect sense because we can actually measure out 30 feet and we can know that my motorhome is up to that length.

[joindk]

HI Ron,

I have a question about option A. I do not understand how 'can grow' parallel 'is famous'. As the two verbs are joined by 'and' they should be parallel. Is 'can' a 'be' form of verb?

Also, 'can grow to be' sounds awkward. Doesn't it?

PLEASE HELP!
Thanks

[joindk]

HI Ron,

I have a question about option A. I do not understand how 'can grow' parallel 'is famous'. As the two verbs are joined by 'and' they should be parallel. Is 'can' a 'be' form of verb?

Also, 'can grow to be' sounds awkward. Doesn't it?

PLEASE HELP!
Thanks

[jnelson0612]

HI Ron,

I have a question about option A. I do not understand how 'can grow' parallel 'is famous'. As the two verbs are joined by 'and' they should be parallel. Is 'can' a 'be' form of verb?

Also, 'can grow to be' sounds awkward. Doesn't it?

PLEASE HELP!
Thanks

The parallelism there is fine because the elements are two verbs: "can" and "is".

"can grow to be" may sound awkward, but since the GMAT test writers say that is the correct answer we have to accept their judgment. :-)