Taking a MGMT Course Advice

[PhillyPhillie]

Hello Stacey,

I need some advice regarding taking a MGMT course and if it would be the wisest thing to do.

I purchased the nine MGMT books last summer and diligently worked though them, along with OG13. I scored a 540 on my first-ever practice test via Prep software. I took three MGMT tests and scored a 640 on the first two, but not in the same manner (different trends on either test). Took the GMAT in late August and received a disappointing 590 (IR 7, Essay 6). Took the three remaining MGMT tests and two slipped to 610 and 580, but then went back up to 640. I topped the GMAT Prep tests at 680, including one that was not a reset. By mid-October, I felt that I started understanding the material and OG problems much better instinctively and my timing was more instinctive too. However, the caveat is that I reset three of the MGMT test and scored from a 680 to a 720. Granted, some of the problems I had seen before, but since I was working at a higher Q level, I had not seen a majority of them. But, I still am wary that those scores are my real ability level (I like to think it is), though I believe that I can reach 690-710.

My goal was to take the GMAT after Thanksgiving, but after reassessing my strategic options, I postponed applying and thus taking the GMAT. In short, I may have jammed self-prep (even though it was rigorous self-prep) into a two-month window and since it was self-prep, may not have fully mastered or grasped the concepts as well as I should have or learned things in the most efficient manner. Generally, I learn quickly and do very well academically, but the one area I have always had to try 10x harder on than anywhere else is math. Also, I was feeling a bit of a burnout.

Post-GMAT, I felt that I started understanding the material and concepts much more instinctively and had a better grasp on timing. For example, I understood the OG enough that I could tell you how a problem could work multiple ways. However, I am not quite sure how well since I was using reset MGMT tests.

I started re-upping via the OG again and am seeing things instantaneously that took me months to grasp (though I am a bit rusty.. for example... I deduced consecutive integers would solve a problem, but it took me a few minutes and then a shower to recall how to do technically do it). So, I am not quite sure where I stand, actually...

My big question is, would I benefit from taking an MGMT course (with instructor Abby)? Or, perhaps more pointedly, is taking a class the best option? (I did some research on the MGMT site and other boards and am still not sure)

A few concerns:
- may have seen enough of the OG already
- already worked with the MGMT guides
- already utilized the six MGMT CATs
- early classes may be a bit too elementary from what I've done on my own so far
- I would see questions in class/tests etc that I have seen already (goes back to my first three points)
- I understand and reviewed strategy topics i.e. your blog posts on timing, when to skip a question, GMAT is a mental resource allocation and not intelligence test etc.

A few benefits:
- nice to work with a real instructor and other students and not simply doing this on my own for a change
- you can always learn new ways to do a problem
- timing can always improve

So Stacey, what do you think?

[StaceyKoprince]

I'm glad that you postponed. Too many people burn themselves out but take the test anyway because that was the plan. They then get discouraged and find it tougher to keep studying. (Also, nice job on essay and IR!)

You ask a really good question. I think there are pros and cons. I'll tell you what I think they are and then you'll have to decide for yourself. :)

Most of our learning comes after we try a problem in the first place. When we go back to analyze the problem (and our work on it), that's when we really learn how to do better. In that sense, then, you would get quite a bit out of a class because the teacher is going to be helping you analyze and learn from every problem that the class does together.

It will be less fun when a new problem pops on the screen because you will already have tried many of these problems before, but once the timer dings, the learning begins, and that's why you're really there.

For quant, in particular, we have everyone do homework from the strategy guides before class, so that class time itself is really devoted to picking apart problems. The teacher isn't going to sit there and list a bunch of rules and formulas - students are expected to learn those before they come to class.

Because you have done so much work already, though, you may find that you're capable of moving faster than others in the class. I do usually see a mix of students in my classes, all the way from newbies to people who've taken the test a couple of times already - so we are used to dealing with that situation. But it's still the case that there are a range of knowledge and ability levels in any classroom, and there will be moments when you're ready to move on but someone else still has questions. (The reverse will be true at times too, of course...)

Finally, I have to add one more tidbit. Abby is AWESOME. That is all. :)

Here's a summary:

pros: learn how to analyze problems with a pro guiding you (you can then use the same techniques when you're working on your own); pick up great timing, mindset, and other strategies throughout the program; make connections with other students and maybe find a study buddy

cons: the pace may be too slow for you at times; you'll have already done many of the in-class problems and the practice tests; the program costs money

Hmm. That leads me to one other thought: you could also take the time that you would put towards the cost of a program and use it for private tutoring. Tutoring is much more expensive, so you wouldn't get nearly the same # of hours of instruction, but it would all be one-on-one and targeted exclusively towards your needs. You might want to call up the office to compare the pricing and figure out whether that's a feasible option for you.

Thoughts?

[PhillyPhillie]

Hello Stacey,

I read your post last evening and gave it some additional thought based upon your comments. I think a more comprehensive review would be the best course of action and cost-benefit instead of targeted tutoring (which can be expensive like you said). Since I have put the book down for several months and have only picked it up half-heartedly, a class would be most beneficial to 'learn from the experts' and do problems more efficiently (and actually be able to interact and not just listen to the recordings).

I like how you described some of the specific workings of the class.

So, I think I will spring for the class.

[StaceyKoprince]

Let me know how it goes - good luck!

[PhillyPhillie]

Hello Stacey,

As you can see, I am now a course student. I am in Abby's class.

The course has been well so far... I like the sections interactive feature (wish it was more frequent).

We have just concluded Session 6 and I just took my second CAT. My score was 650 (40 Q, 38 V). I took some CATs almost a year ago and I seem to be stuck at this level (my first CAT last month for the class was non-essay/IR and a 720, 44 Q, 45 V, but I think it was fluke because I guessed correctly on some Q, and ironically, I got the same number correct AND a higher difficulty level average on my second CAT for V, but got the higher score on the first since I trailed off at the end on my second CAT).

My primary question is: how can I 'raise my game'? On V, I can see a path after having a sections session with Andrea tonight... but am not sure what to do with Q. Some positive trends... I am almost always below 50% on DS, but this time, got 10 of 15 correct with a mid 600 difficulty level. But, my PS is a problem now.. 26% in the 600 range, but I am hitting all of the 500s and mostly seeing all 600s. Usually I am 50%-ish for PS overall and averaging the lower-mid 600 range. I am having some trouble with Word Problems, and there were 8 on the last CAT. (DS usually holds me back in the overall Q score)

Also, during review of the CATs, I can methodically pick the problems apart and understand how the problems work and get an answer, even on the 7-800s, after seeing them a SECOND time (still lost on combinatronics though). But, how can I pick the problems apart correctly the FIRST time? I seem to do this well for the most part during timed practice, but can't seem to do this well or with consistency with a CAT.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or strategies?

[StaceyKoprince]

For word / story problems, try this and see whether it helps you wrap your head around how to translate and work with the stories:

https://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/inde ... them-real/

This might help too:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... ms-part-1/

How's your timing? A lot of times, people think they're bad at DS when what's really happening is that they spend too much time on various PS problems, rush on DS to make it up, and then of course make mistakes on DS. Make sure that's not what's happening.

Use this article to do a deep analysis of your test:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/inde ... ts-part-1/

Figure out your strengths and weaknesses as well as what you think you should do based on that analysis. Then come back here and tell us; we'll tell you whether we agree and advise you further.

Also, do ask Abby for her thoughts if you haven't already.

For DS, take a look at this:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... questions/

Also try the labs that cover DS topics (in your student center, under Resources & Downloads).

I can methodically pick the problems apart and understand how the problems work and get an answer, even on the 7-800s, after seeing them a SECOND time. But, how can I pick the problems apart correctly the FIRST time?

Figure out what the difference is between the two times. :) What are you seeing the second time that you weren't noticing the first time? The second time, you're picking out clues that tell you what's going on and what to do next. Make those clues very explicit to yourself - write them down and study them! When I saw XYZ, I knew to think / do ABC. Or: next time I see XYZ, I will know to ABC.

Read these two articles:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/inde ... lly-tests/
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... -the-gmat/

Then come back here and tell me what you think!

[PhillyPhillie]

Yes, I have also asked Abby and sent her my own analysis of my CAT. I thought it would be good to ask you for some advice as well, because the more experts you ask, the more potential for insightful advice :)

Those first two story articles were interesting, particularly with regard to taking a step back and simplifying, while glancing at the answers. Also, I think it kind of ties into the issue that I mentioned towards the end of the last issue in my previous post (understanding and getting it correct on a second try, but not the first).

Case in point: I just so happened to have an index card of a CAT problem that I got wrong in 2:30 sitting next to my laptop. I read the problem and glanced at the answers. "Ok.. right triangle... side lengths x and y... perimeter is 4x.. what is ratio x:y?" "Oh algebra and multiple variables.. bleech...let's plug and play" (on the test I tried algebra and got frustrated, and don't even recall glancing at the answers until the end)

So, I glanced at the answers and saw 3:4 and thought "ok, that's a special right triangle let's start here, x=3, so perimeter 4x = 12... hypt. must be 5... does 3+4+5 = 12? 4*3= 12? YES, ratio 3:4.. answer! And I did it in 20 seconds... now I will re-write the back of that card.

The funny thing is that I used the method you described when I first started GMAT prep and clueless about the test, but got away from it once I started learning more of the algebra/computational methods.

One thing I have learned from my CAT analysis is that I should look at the answers and see if plugging in numbers will help, especially with variables in the question stem.

Timing (Q questions were all 6-700 except for 3 or 4): I am in the green zone on all of the questions I got correctly, except for two (where I was being extremely cautious and still checking work long after I got the answer). Almost every wrong answer had significant timing issues and I've labeled P, S1, or S2... I got almost all of these correct on a redo. So, I may have to apply more of the method you outlined above..

I do not have a content problem; I was only clueless on one question: a combinatronics problem. Overall, I know how to do the problems I am getting wrong, but I am either having trouble deciding the most efficient way to do the problem, or making a mistake.

The second time that I try the problem, I am taking a more comprehensive view of the problem, whereas the first time I was trying to think of a method to employ first and categorizing a problem, which is kind of antithetical to my way of thinking anyhow. I think that I spend so much time learning content and methods to do a problem type, it is the first thing I think of when I see a new problem. I remember as I was pressed for time at the end, I relied on more of a comprehensive analysis, and my accuracy rose, even on the same difficultly level questions. It seems like breaking down the questions into really simple ideas is the key here... and looking for keywords and clues...

[StaceyKoprince]

Love your description of glancing at the answers and realizing that you'd want to do it differently than you did the first time (with algebra). Yes, that's it exactly!

You do need to know the proper math, of course. First, sometimes you do have to solve that way, and second, if you know the real math, you'll be better able to spot the shortcuts and apply more test-savvy solving methods. But then, yes, you always want to take that step back at the beginning and think, okay, what's the best way to do THIS one?

For your flashcards, try making some that don't have the entire problem on the card - after all, you won't see that problem on the test. Include just the words / concepts / portions that are the best signals for how to solve. Then what you're drilling is "oh, when I see 'nice' numerical answers on PS, I could consider working backwards." "When I see <0 or >0, it's not an inequalities problem, it's a positive / negative problem, so I should think about it from that point of view." Etc.

So you're on the right track - keep it up!