Self Study Student Question

[christopher.shen]

I'm into Week 3 of using Self Study Prep Plus and systematically going through the material in the order suggested by the Study Organizer. I have not taken a CAT test yet, but I am concerned about the number of questions I am getting wrong in the OG.

My OG Tracker stats:

Quant:
PS 70% Correct 19/27 answered avg time 1:15
DS 56% Correct 14/25 answered avg time 1:47

Verbal:
SC 63% Correct 21/34 answered avg time 1:35

(I've been skipping the advanced sections and plan to go back after week9)

I'm aiming for 700+ for my target schools. Should I continue pushing through the material or go back and make sure I'm getting a higher percent correct on OG. I'm getting around 80-90% correct on In-Action problems.

[StaceyKoprince]

Several things:

On the real test, you're only going to get about 60% right (yes, even at a 700 level) - in other words, you're going to get a lot wrong. I want to make sure you know this because I don't want your morale to drop on the practice test or real test when you can tell that you're getting a lot wrong or don't know how to do a lot of the questions.

Within OG, the percentage you might expect to get right could be higher - it depends on the mix of questions you're doing. The lower-numbered questions are easier than the higher-numbered questions. If you're doing all, then you might reasonably expect a higher percentage correct. If you're skipping some of the easier ones, then that would obviously bring the overall percentage down.

The bigger thing: right now, when you get something wrong, you should be glad. Yes, glad! That's because you know you're about to learn something and get better - and that's the whole point, right? :) You learn the most from the review and analysis you do after you finish a problem (regardless of whether you got it right or wrong).

On your first time through, worry most about process - again, regardless of whether you got the question right or wrong - do I know the material backwards and forwards? Was I able to recognize what this problem was testing? Did I do the problem in the most efficient way? Did I spot and avoid traps? Did I fall into traps? Did I make any careless mistakes? How would I make an educated guess, if I had to? Etc.

Again, you should ask yourself these questions regardless of whether you got it right or wrong. Then, of course, if you did get it wrong, you want to ask yourself why you got it wrong and what you need to do to avoid getting similar things wrong in the future. (And then go do whatever that is.)

Take a look at this article, which discusses how to analyze the problems that you're doing:
http://www.beatthegmat.com/a/2009/10/09/how-to-analyze-a-practice-problem

Also, note other things about how your work is going. Your average on PS is 1m15s. We're supposed to average about 2m on PS. So, you're going very fast, which probably means you're confident, but you're not getting everything right... so what's going on? Are you making careless mistakes? Obviously, you're going to make some careless mistakes sometimes, but you can't make too many and still get the score you want to get.

When you make a careless mistake, start by figuring out exactly what happened, and then WHY it happened. If you figure out why, then you can do something about it. Basically, there's some habit you need to make or some habit you need to break (or both!) in order to minimize the chances of making that careless mistake again. What are the habits and how are you going to make or break them? Then go do it.

Finally, you should really take a CAT. You probably don't feel like you're prepared, but that's actually okay - your first test should be relatively cold. You want to know what your starting strengths and weaknesses are so that you can both prioritize your study appropriately and know where you need to spend more time studying.

It sounds like you're keeping very organized and motivated - keep up the good work!

[christopher.shen]

Hi Stacey,

It's been awhile since you first responded to my post, but I've been implementing your tips for the past couple of weeks and came up with some new questions. I finished all the assignments and video lectures except for any advanced in action or OG problems.

My OG Tracker stats went up when I completed all the general questions. (The selectively assigned weekly OG Problems are definitely harder).

Quant:
PS 85% Correct 253/430 completed avg time 1:46
DS 72% Correct 196/322 completed avg time 2:03

Verbal:
RC 94% Correct 72/260 completed avg time 1:31
CR 81% Correct 176/224 completed avg time 2:06
SC 69% Correct 186/271 completed avg time 1:28

I used your post on reviewing problems to analyze every single OG problem I've completed -- wrong or right -- and taken notes on general takeaways. Thanks for pointing out my fast + wrong habit in PS, I take some extra time to double check my work and use the allotted 2:00 min and I think it's increased my accuracy.

Took 2 CATs as well.

11/29/09: CAT 1 (FREE) 640(80%) - Q43(70%)/V35(77%)
12/5/09: CAT 2 640(80%) - Q43(70%)/V35(77%)

I just now saw your post on reviewing CAT Exams, so I will use that post to analyze my CAT 2. I was surprised to see an identical score on my 2nd CAT, because I was getting much harder questions and thought my timing had improved.

My questions:

1. Would I benefit the most by studying advanced topics now? Using the assessment summary, I was definitely getting harder questions on CAT 2. In quant, I received 21, 700+ level questions compared to 7 questions on my CAT 1 -- it felt like the exam was
repeatedly punching me in the face. Meaning, it took me around 45-60 seconds just to digest the question, leaving me no time to solve the problem under 2min. On some of the quant questions I just saw a wall of text and blanked out, so far nothing I've practiced has been that difficult (on most practice problems I've seen so far, if I know I got it wrong, I can usually go back and solve without looking at the right answer. I can usually tell I've made a careless mistake somewhere).

CAT 2 Average Difficulty Level Right/Wrong:
PS: 690/720
DS: 600/730 <- Weakness?
SC: 710/730
CR: 700/720
RC: 650/730

CAT 1 Average Difficulty Level Right/Wrong:
PS: 600/670
DS: 640/680
SC: 630/700
CR: 670/670
RC: 640/690

What do large differences between Average Right and Wrong Level mean, if anything?

At this point, I can't tell if my foundation is weak or if I just need practice doing advanced problems. I've gone through the Red Books once with the course and reread sections during problem review. However, these days when I review the Red Books I don't think I'm learning anything new (arguable).

If you think I do need to work on my foundation, what's the best way to proceed given that I've completed all the general OG problems, lectures, and red books? Do it all again? I'm thinking about going over all the OG problems I got wrong in DS and SC. I
doubt I'll remember the correct answers instantly, so it may beneficial to do so.

2. How should I incorporate the Payoff Statistic in OG Tracker during my test taking? I think I'm having timing issues in Quant, I had a string of 4 wrong in the 600-700 range near the end averaging about 1:00 to 1:40. But, my payoff is around 75% in Quant and 68% in Verbal -- seems quite high. I'm pretty self-aware in quant and usually know if I spend the extra 30-45 seconds over 2 min I can get the correct answer, but I suffer at the end of the test. In other words, I'm not hung up on questions I can't do (average time for wrong answers is ~2:00), but I need the extra time to do the questions I can do. Not sure how to proceed.

3. Could you provide some insight on the relative difficult of my CAT 2 vs my CAT 1 and how I ended up with the same score on both? I felt okay taking the CAT 1 and wasn't surprised by my score, but the CAT 2 was punishing -- I had difficulty just understanding the questions. By measure of difficulty I thought I would score in the upper 600s especially if the most of the questions were in the 700 - 800 level.

Although I'm shooting for 700+, on test day I'd like to maximize my score and lower my variance if that means shooting for 680-90 instead of taking long stabs at 700 Qs with the possibility of ending up at 640. I'm thinking that my "true" score is currently between 660-80, but if I spend extra time I can do 700-800 level questions. However, taking the extra time forces me to rush at the end and my score suffers as a result.

I still have 2 half hour sessions to use, so let me know if you think it's worth having an instructor go over my 2 CATs at this point.

Thanks for your help.

[StaceyKoprince]

Re: your OG tracker stats, what are your percentages and average time if you cut out the first 50 questions and the last 20 questions in each OG12 section? (In other words, if we drop the easiest ones and the hardest ones, and make the range similar to what you'd actually see on the test.) Check that just to make sure that your numbers are still good - that might uncover a "hidden" problem.

PS: 690/720
DS: 600/730 <- Weakness?

Not necessarily actually - because the average difficulty wrong is still very high. If both DS stats were low, that'd indicate a problem.

RC: 640/690

Just an FYI that RC difficulties are usually a bit lower, even if you're very good at RC. RC questions for one passage are not adaptive; they're all determined at the start of the passage. Also, they only write so many questions for a passage at a variety of levels, so out of 3 or 4 questions, some have to be lower level.

What do large differences between Average Right and Wrong Level mean, if anything

Part of this is the randomness of the test and might not mean anything, but it could also mean that you're having a lot of fluctuation on the test - if we could "map out" your score throughout, it would be going up and down a lot. You'll have to take a look at how you were performing throughout the test, using the problem list, to see if you think that might've been happening and, if so, why. (Timing issues? Mental fatigue?)

Could you provide some insight on the relative difficult of my CAT 2 vs my CAT 1 and how I ended up with the same score on both? By measure of difficulty I thought I would score in the upper 600s especially if the most of the questions were in the 700 - 800 level.

Your score is not a reflection of an average difficult level throughout the test. Your position at the end is your score, regardless of what your "average" would be throughout. So, you could answer 25 700+ questions correctly, and then get the next 12 questions wrong and the level at the end could drop to, say, 550. That 550 would be your score, not an average of all 37 questions.

So take a look at that test. Did you let yourself get too sucked in along the way and then have a performance drop at the end? You mentioned that "I had a string of 4 wrong in the 600-700 range near the end averaging about 1:00 to 1:40" - was that on Cat2? That would be part of the problem - indicating both that your score was already dropping (because these were 600-700 level, not 700-800) and that it dropped even more (because a string of 4 wrong will really hurt).

if I spend extra time I can do 700-800 level questions. However, taking the extra time forces me to rush at the end and my score suffers as a result.

And now that you know how the scoring works (from above), you also know that spending that extra time isn't worth it if it causes you to rush at the end. Your score will just drop - and it will usually drop further than what you could have earned if you'd worked steadily through and let some of the 700+ questions go.

At this point, you need to do a few things. Whatever you can figure out for yourself, do so. Whatever you can't, use instructor time to figure out.

1) Where are you spending your time wisely and where are you not spending your time wisely (in terms of specific kinds of questions and content areas)? This includes spending too much time on a high level question (even if you get it right), causing you to have to rush at the end - that's part of the "unwise time management" category.
2) What impact does the "unwise time management" have on the rest of the test? (hint: running out of time at end, careless mistakes, general feelings of panic pulling down performance, etc)
3) When you make careless mistakes, WHY do you make them? What habits should you make or break to minimize the chances of making these types of careless mistakes in future?
4) When you have this feeling: "Meaning, it took me around 45-60 seconds just to digest the question, leaving me no time to solve the problem under 2min" what should you do? Make an educated guess. How good are you at both making the decision to do this and actually doing it? Do you know how to do this effectively and efficiently? Do you know how to adjust your educated guessing strategy depending upon the particular type of problem and content being tested?
5) Re: the payoff stats ("usually know if I spend the extra 30-45 seconds over 2 min I can get the correct answer, but I suffer at the end of the test"), some of these problems are then problems that you can learn how to do in 2m instead of 2:30 or 2:45. Do the necessary work to figure out how to do so (with help from your instructor, if needed). Some of these are problems on which you'll have to make a judgment call: hmm, no, it really is going to take me 45s extra. Do I want to make that tradeoff? I generally follow this rule: if I think it'll take less than 30s extra, I'll spend the time. If I think it'll take more than that, then it's not worth it - even if I know exactly what to do - because that's going to add up (and go against me) by the end.

You might want to do the initial test analysis yourself to come up with a series of notes and questions to ask the instructor, then use one of your 2 remaining sessions to both validate what you've analyzed and ask questions about how to proceed from there (to lift your score another 50 points or so). Then go do some more work before you either do the same for your last session (but with a new practice test, of course), or have a session in which you discuss something specific that's giving you trouble. (eg, how to make educated guesses, how to break certain bad habits that are causing lots of mistakes, etc.)

I don't think you need to just go through the red strategy guides anymore. You should use your results (on practice tests and questions) to dictate the review you do in the red strategy guides - you only go back to what you need to review, based on your performance. (Remember that you may need to review something for timing, even if you've got a good percentage correct.)

Do continue to do OG problems - random sets, and don't worry about whether you got them right or wrong before (in terms of choosing what to do). There are still things you can learn even on something you got right. Don't do the first 1/3 of the problems in any section, though - your score is high enough that you really shouldn't see many of those and you want to try to simulate the test more. Use your results to drive what review you need to do, whether that's re-watching a lecture, re-reading part of a strategy guide, re-doing some practice questions in a certain area, etc.

For areas where you're doing well, by all means, go on to some of the harder problems, but remember that this test rewards generalists over specialists. In other words, it's better to have a relatively even "foundation" than to have some areas that are fantastic and others that are below where you want to score.

[christopher.shen]

what are your percentages and average time if you cut out the first 50 questions and the last 20 questions in each OG12 section?

With first 50 and last 20 cut out of OG12 (no challenge sets or advanced questions):

Quant:
PS 83% Correct 183/430 completed avg time 1:50
DS 71% Correct 161/322 completed avg time 1:58*

*Cut out first 25 and last 10, not enough OG12 DS questions to cut 70.

Verbal:
CR 79% Correct 106/224 completed avg time 2:08
SC 60% Correct 116/271 completed avg time 1:27

Not sure if Q and V Review questions have equivalent
difficulty to OG12 questions based on question number,
so here are just my OG12 stats:

Quant (removed Quant Review data):
PS 78% Correct 98/430 completed avg time 1:53
DS 68% Correct 92/322 completed avg time 1:58

Verbal (removed Verbal Review data):
CR 71% Correct 71/224 completed avg time 2:16
SC 47% Correct 49/271 completed avg time 1:40

Should I focus on SC and DS? I'm using selected portions of Ryan's 14-Day plan to review my CATs. Making a note card for every Math and SC problem, noting splits and rules, perhaps I could do the same for OG problems.

Just an FYI that RC difficulties are usually a bit lower, even if you're very good at RC.

Just to clarify, are you saying that I should not be concerned about my 640 RC level or that I should focus on getting this section to 700+, because the difficulty is actually lower?

(Timing issues? Mental fatigue?)

Probably both. I just finished making note cards for all the math questions from my CAT 2. The problems I was complaining about were actually very doable based on the information I know from the general sections of the red books. I think I let the wordiness throw me off. I took the CAT 2 late at night and those 5-6 sentence math questions looked impossible, especially as I was running out of time. I'll work on timing and problem recognition.

Did you let yourself get too sucked in along the way and then have a performance drop at the end?

Some of these are problems on which you'll have to make a judgment call: hmm, no, it really is going to take me 45s extra. Do I want to make that tradeoff?

I used your post on evaluating practice tests to review my CAT2. Although my average time right and wrong fall within the appropriate range for every category, I went over time on 8 math questions in the first half (ranging 2:38 to 3:23; 5 correct, 7 of them PS). Looks like I need to start making a judgment call sooner on these borderline problems.

How good are you at both making the decision to do this and actually doing it? Do you know how to do this effectively and efficiently? Do you know how to adjust your educated guessing strategy depending upon the particular type of problem and content being tested?

Not very good at all. I have gone through the guessing lab, so I'm aware of answer pairing, max/min and rounding, but most of the time I just guess C :) I'll incorporate guessing strategy into my practice and cut myself at 2 minutes on OG problems. What's the best way to develop content based guessing? I don't remember seeing this topic covered. For example, when I'm making a note card based on a geometry problem that took me 3 minutes and I want to note a guessing strategy for future reference, what sorts of questions should I be asking myself? Besides pairing, max/min and rounding sometimes I can't come up with any new strategy.

By the way, what do you think of making note cards for every Math problem or SC OG problem that I get wrong? Have you seen the actual rewriting process help students? The reason I ask is because it's very time consuming and literally taking me 10+ minutes to rewrite the problem, note splits, alternative solutions, guessing strategy, takeaway. Doing so really forces me to tear apart a problem, but I'm wondering if focusing on specific problems so much is a good idea.

Thanks for your quick responses, I'll finish reviewing my CAT2, make a list of questions, and book an appointment with an instructor.

[StaceyKoprince]

Okay, so timing is a bit high on SC - that should be averaging closer to 1m15s. And that percentage is also obviously lower than CR, so it does look like SC is the place to work on the verbal side. The quant numbers are a lot closer, so you might want to give a *bit* of bias to DS, but you also mention, in your timing analysis, that you're tending to go over on PS, not DS - so you need to give some attention to PS on the timing issue.

Just to clarify, are you saying that I should not be concerned about my 640 RC level or that I should focus on getting this section to 700+, because the difficulty is actually lower?

I was saying not to worry about it - they typically don't write three 700+ questions for one passage, so even if you're doing very well, you're going to have lower difficulty levels there just due to what's available in the database.

I took the CAT 2 late at night

Okay, always make sure to mimic normal test conditions as much as possible - which includes not taking the test late at night. :) If you're going to spend all that time and effort to take a test, let's make it as applicable to the real situation as possible.

Looks like I need to start making a judgment call sooner on these borderline problems.

Yes. And note when you made careless mistakes because of timing pressure - that was the cost of spending that extra time elsewhere on the test. It's really important not to sacrifice problems you know you can do (especially because those tend to be lower-level problems compared to the ones on which you want to spend too much time!).

What's the best way to develop content based guessing?

Basically, completely picking apart the problem and trying to find multiple other ways to approach. The very basic concept is the answer to this question: How do I identify wrong answers, even when I don't know how to get the right answer? On quant, that might have to do with estimating, doing partial work (if a number from part-way along the problem is in the answers, then that probably isn't the answer), trying real numbers (if a theory or algebra problem), doing the wrong calculations (I once saw a combinatorics problem that wanted us to pick 5 people from a group of 9 and one of the answers was 45 - even if you don't know the right way to calculate that, you might know that it's not 9*5), and so on. On verbal, you can usually narrow down on SC based on some rules, even if you can't get to one answer, so that's already an educated guess right there. On CR and RC, it's important to be able to recognize the wrong answer types (which your books discuss).

Basically, it's going to take some study! You can also look through explanations on your past MGMAT CAT exams; some of the explanations include how to make an educated guess. (This is something that the flash card exercise can help to develop, by the way.)

Which takes us to the flash card topic - yes, these do take a lot of time to prepare. I would suggest doing this with most problems, but not necessarily every last one. Basically, pick the areas that are the most frequently tested and concentrate more on those, because that's where the work is more likely to pay off. If you haven't already, take a look at the article I linked to a while back (how to analyze problems); these are the kinds of questions you should be asking yourself (and answering!).

Doing so really forces me to tear apart a problem, but I'm wondering if focusing on specific problems so much is a good idea.

This is exactly how you learn the most. All of these problems you're studying - you're never going to see these exact problems on the test. But you will see problems that are like some of the problems that you're studying. If you know how the general type of problem is constructed, the kinds of things you should be thinking about, the kinds of takeaways to remember and use - then you're going to be able to maximize your performance on the test, because you're going to be able to apply the lessons you learned to the new-but-similar problems you see on the test.

Also, 10 minutes sounds fine to me. When I'm analyzing a problem, I can easily spend anywhere between 5 and 15 minutes to do so. If I don't spend the time to learn everything I can about that problem, then I'm wasting a lot of my time. Quality over quantity. :)

[christopher.shen]

Hi Stacey,

A little more than a week before my test day--I hope you're able to catch this after New Years... I've gone through all the upper level OG/QG/VG problems in all categories twice (I don't have them memorized and could probably go a 3rd time). Made flash cards for all wrong or sketchy topics. Reviewed red books twice. Reviewed advanced topics.

Stats from OG Tracker (with problems redone)--Honestly I didn't remember the answers to problems, but could "feel" the traps to look out for. Still good practice?:

Quant:
PS 83% Correct 430/430 completed avg time 1:54
DS 77% Correct 316/321 completed avg time 2:21

Verbal:
RC 91% Correct 131/260 completed avg time 1:32
CR 86% Correct 224/224 completed avg time 2:07
SC 68% Correct 253/271 completed avg time 1:26

Primary reason for my post... my practice exam scores are across the map and I'm not feeling "good" when going through the exam. Is it possible to ever study enough to be at that point of confidence?

11/29/09: CAT1 640 - Q43/V35
12/05/09: CAT2 640 - Q43/V35
12/18/09: CAT3 600 - Q37/V35
12/31/09: GmatPrep 730 - Q37/V41

I guess I should be happy about my most recent practice test, but it felt like one of my worst runs (was crossing my fingers for 600) and 12/18 shook me up because I felt I did well before seeing my score. I thought the math questions from GP were much harder than MGCATs. The good news is that my timing was much better and no string of incorrect answers in either section on 12/31. SC is finally starting to click and I'm breezing through.

Last minute tips given my situation? I think another GP test is in order and a review of the wrong answers on my GP exams.

[StaceyKoprince]

Hi - I'm sorry I'm just getting to this now! There were a lot of posts to clear before yours. :( Given the timeframe you mentioned, you're probably getting ready to take the test in the next few days, but I'll reply anyway, just in case.

Is it possible to ever study enough to be at that point of confidence?

It depends on the person but I'd say that most people always feel they could be doing a little better or they should just wait a little longer to take the test... It's hard when you can schedule the test whenever you want.

That was a huge jump on that last practice test. The verbal really kicked into another level. Take a look through very carefully to see whether something unusual (and not replicable) was going on. Maybe you saw questions you'd seen before. Maybe you skipped the essays. Maybe you got really lucky and got everything right when you guessed. If those sorts of things were going on, then that score is probably not replicable on the real test.

If, however, it really was the case that you just learned a bunch of new stuff, SC was really clicking, you knew what you were doing, etc - then maybe that is replicable on the real test and you should feel more confident!

I generally recommend taking the final practice test 5-7 days before the real thing. The last 5 days should be for review and problem sets only - high-level review of all of your major strategies, major content (math and grammar), pacing, etc. The two days before, very light review - not more than 2 hours the day before. (You either know it or you don't at this point. Better to make sure you don't burn yourself out the day before.)

I also recommend doing some VERY easy practice problems on the day of the test. Choose questions that are from your strongest area. DO NOT look at the answers - don't even check your work. You're just jogging around the track, warming up before the big game. Don't risk spraining your ankle right now.

Do the questions as close as possible to the test but DO NOT bring the questions into the testing center with you. (That's not allowed.) So maybe arrive early and sit in your car or in a coffee shop nearby and do questions for 10-15 minutes. Then leave the paper in your car or throw it out.

Good luck - let us know how it goes!

[christopher.shen]

Took the real GMAT on Tuesday:

1/5/09 - 680 Q42 (62%) / V40 (89%) AWA 5.0

I'm going to retake and shoot for mid 700s in a month or two. The biggest surprise was my AWA score. For the first essay I only had an intro and 2 body paragraphs. Not even a conclusion! For the second essay I setup 3 body paragraphs in the intro, but only had time for 1 body and concluding paragraph. I threw in a lot of fancy words and jargon, I wonder if the algo is rather easy to "beat".

Although, I wasn't able to read your reply before my test I ended up following a lot of your advice. Except I took the final GMATPrep the day before.

11/29/09: CAT1 640 - Q43/V35
12/05/09: CAT2 640 - Q43/V35
12/18/09: CAT3 600 - Q37/V35
12/31/09: GmatPrep 730 - Q37/V41
01/04/10: GmatPrep 710 - Q45/V42

Given the GmatPreps and my actual score, looks like the jump in Verbal isn't a fluke (ty SC guide).

I'm going to do a PEA, but what do you recommend for someone who has exhaustively gone through most of the material available? I know your average student scores a 690, but what do your 700+ students typically do differently? Additional material? More time spent? I'm surprised Q42 is only (62%), must be a lot of quants out there.

[StaceyKoprince]

Nice job! I know you want an even higher score, but 680 is a great score. Good work!

I wonder if the algo is rather easy to "beat".

There's also a person reading / scoring each essay, so you're not going to "beat" him / her. :) They do take into account the fact that the essay is impromptu and you don't have much time. But make your life easier next time. 4 paragraphs, 2 examples, no more than 5 sentences per paragraph. That should get you at least your same score again with not too much brainpower expended (and that's the real goal).

Given the GmatPreps and my actual score, looks like the jump in Verbal isn't a fluke

That's great! That'll give you a lot of confidence going forward.

I know your average student scores a 690, but what do your 700+ students typically do differently? Additional material? More time spent?

No - neither of those. 700+ scores are not about the quantity of brute-force study. 700+ scores (or 80+ percentile scores in the sub-sections) come from really understanding how the minds of the test-writers work, and how they construct the problems. You've already managed to figure this out to some extent on verbal, as evidenced by that score.

If you haven't already, read this article:
http://www.beatthegmat.com/a/2009/10/09/how-to-analyze-a-practice-problem

Most of our learning comes from the analysis described in this article. If you have done a bunch of problems (from OG or MGMAT) but haven't actually analyzed to this level, then you aren't done with those problems - go back to them again.

If you also want some new problems, I recommend other versions of the OG books (OG11 if you currently have OG12 or vice versa, etc.). Just make sure that you do a bunch of the above-described analysis on OLD problems first. Learn some new ways of thinking about these problems, THEN go test yourself on new problems.

Good luck - let us know how it goes!