SC: From Thursdays with Ron-Sep 23, 2010

[supratim7]

Dear Ron,
I have come across a sentence with "Comma + INCLUDING" Modifier error.

* The tomato is a member of the generally toxic nightshade family, including belladonna, and thus was once considered poisonous.

In the Sep 23, 2010 study hall, you have mentioned that,
A) Comma + INCLUDING Modifier modifies the preceding NOUN, NOT the WHOLE IDEA.
B) Comma + INCLUDING Modifier should give a list of SOME, but NOT ALL of the preceding Nouns.

Applying A & B to to the sentence in question,
"including belladonna" IS MODIFYING the noun "nightshade family", not the whole idea.
"including belladonna" is just one example of the "nightshade family", not all.

So why is the sentence not fine? I need some help on this.

Appreciate your time.
Many thanks | Supratim

[tim]

how do you know this sentence is wrong? i presume you found this sentence somewhere, which means you need to include the source for it before we can discuss it here..

[supratim7]

This was discussed in Jan 05, 2012 Thursdays with Ron study hall.
Appreciate your time.
Many thanks | Supratim

[tim]

i would say the problem with this one is that "family" is not a plural noun and thus is not the type of noun you can list some of. You could however list some of the family's *members*. consider the following examples:

India is the largest member of the Commonwealth of Nations, including Australia, Canada, and South Africa. (incorrect)

The Commonwealth of Nations has many members, including Australia, Canada, and South Africa. (correct)

[supratim7]

Thank you Tim for the reply. Appreciate it

[tim]

my pleasure..

[keithyang926]

I'm very confused how far back 'including' can reach. Let me present some examples.

1. Sundra was one of the most influential artists in the America,training several generations of actors including Sammy Wilson and James Nedel.

I know this is a wrong sentence, because including modifies the whole phrase, 'generations of actors', I just don't know why the 'including' here has to modify the whole phrase, I thought it can modify either the noun precedes it, or the noun with a modifier.

2. A study by the Ocean Wildlife Campaign urged states to undertake a number of remedies to reverse a decline in the shark population, including establishing size limits for shark catches, closing state waters for shark fishing during pupping season, and requiring commercial fishers to have federal shark permits. (this sentence comes from GMAT PREP)

This sentence is correct, I'm very surprised that including can modify way back 'remedies', does this mean that 'to reverse a decline in the shark population' is a modifier modifies 'remedies'?

I'm not sure under what circumstances, 'including' can modify just the immedately preceding noun, not a whole phrase; and how can we determine how far it can refer to?

Ron, can you help here? Thanks!

[tim]

1. "including" can modify either one. the problem here is that both are inappropriate because neither the generations nor the actors included these guys..

2. that would be a correct interpretation..

keep in mind that if you have a noun followed by a modifier followed by another modifier, both modifiers can be considered to touch the noun for the purposes of the touch rule..

[keithyang926]

1. "including" can modify either one. the problem here is that both are inappropriate because neither the generations nor the actors included these guys..

2. that would be a correct interpretation..

keep in mind that if you have a noun followed by a modifier followed by another modifier, both modifiers can be considered to touch the noun for the purposes of the touch rule..

Thanks, Tim.

1. Why can't 'including' appropriately modify actors? those guys are examples of actors I think.

2. I checked Manhattan SC guide, infinitive indeed can function as adj. to modfy a noun, but how can you tell the infinitive here 'to reverse a decline in the shark population' is acting as adj to modify 'remedies', I thought it acted as adv to modify the verb, but in this case, acting as adv, including can jump over the big adv to modify 'remedies'??

[tim]

1. grammatically it's correct. one noun including another. but it doesn't make sense to talk about "actors including X and Y" if you mean to give examples. "including" is not the word we use to introduce examples; if you want to say X and Y are examples of actors, you should use "such as"..

2. ask and answer a couple of questions for yourself to see what modifiers match up with what things. what kind of remedies do we have? remedies "to reverse a decline in the shark population". what are we using to reverse a decline in the shark population? remedies..