SC - As a result of the medical advances

[mgmat.cr]

As a result of the medical advances, many people that might at one time have died as children of such infections as diptheria, pneumonia or rheumatic fever now live well into old age.

a. that might at one time have died as children
b. who might once have died in childhood
c. that as children might once have died
d. who in childhood might have at one time died
e. who, when they are children, might at one time have died

Can the instructors explain what's wrong with option d?

[sarfrazyusuf]

Most people would eliminate D because it sounds way too awkward compared with B. Looking at it technically, I think D creates a confusion because it mentions two time periods - 'in childhood' and 'at one time'.

So when would these children have died - in childhood or at one time? Option D actually makes it look like 'at one time' in which case what is that one time?

Too much ambiguity in D while B gets it spot on by stating that the children might once have 'died in childhood'.

[tim]

Yeah we've definitely got some trouble with D in terms of the timing. "once" as used in the OA means "in the past", whereas "at one time" is much more strongly suggestive of an attempt to pinpoint a specific day. Looking at the intent of the sentence, we definitely want the former..
Another issue is that the "in childhood" is misplaced in D. It is supposed to modify "died", but in D there is no real reason to conclude that this is the case..

[thanghnvn]

pls, help, Ron, Manhantan experts.
about who vs that

OG 11, (this question is also in og11) explains that "pronoun who rather than that should be used to refer to people"

I learn from this explanation that gmat prefer "who" than "that".

is my thinking correct?,

I learn from general grammar that "which" is used for only non-defining clause and "that" is used for only defining clause.

Is this thing correct?

Thank you.

[tim]

yes, and yes..

[sartajzzz]

I disagree with the everyone's explanation.

The way I see it, there is a fundamental flaw in option B:
"died in CHILDHOOD OF SUCH INFECTIONS as"

It seems to say as if the infections were in childhood. Rather it should say, they died of such infections as. So 'Childhood' should not come with 'of such infection.'

My answer is D.

I hope I am able to convey my message clearly. If I am wrong PLEASE HELP.

[RonPurewal]

sartajzzz --

1/
OFFICIALLY CORRECT ANSWERS ARE CORRECT!
do not question officially correct answers!
far too many students on this forum make the mistake of questioning the correct answers; please note that doing so is a complete waste of your time and effort. i.e., exactly 0% of the time that you spend posting "isn't this official answer wrong?" is productive; exactly 100% of that time is wasted.

"is this correct?" is NEVER a productive question to ask about one of GMAC's correct answers -- the answer is always yes.
"is this wrong?" / "is this X type of error?" is NEVER a productive question to ask about one of GMAC's correct answers -- the answer is always no.

instead, the questions you should be asking about correct official answers, if you don't understand them, are:
"why is this correct?"
"how does this work?"
"what understanding am i lacking that i need to understand this choice?"

this is a small, but hugely significant, change to your way of thinking -- you will suddenly find it much easier to understand the format, style, and conventions of the official problems if you dispose of the idea that they might be wrong.


2/
please read the thread; the issue of (b) vs. (d) has already been addressed.

[sartajzzz]

Ron

I apologize if my writing style seemed to be condescending or haughty. I think there was a communication gap.

What I actually meant to write was that there were none of the explanations I agreed with. Of course I agree with the answer. There's no alternative.

I was just trying to create a healthy discussion point to find the most suitable explanation. I still disagree with explanations above.

Moreover, "at one time" means 'a period or moment in the past.' The period may be of 100 years. For instance, At one time very few houses in town were on the market. One of our friends wrote: "I think D creates a confusion because it mentions two time periods - 'in childhood' and 'at one time'." Well, you may be right. But option B also mentions two time periods 'once' and 'in childhood.'

Let me bring forth a point to find the best answer. YES D IS WRONG AND SO WAS I. But for a different reason. Manhattan SC guide says the 'of' construction is misleading. So, let's delete 'of' construction. The sentence reads (with option B): "many people who might once have died in childhood ..... now live well into old age" SEEMS CORRECT.

(with option D): "many people who in childhood might have at one time died ..... now live well into old age" Ummmm.... Not COOL. Rejected.

So, Ron, I was not wasting my time and of others by challenging them to find correct explanation. I was just trying to find the right explanation. I was just not ready to settle on wrong explanations.

"The world needs people who are strong enough to sustain a question."
George Herbert Mead.

Again, not in condescending tone.

Regards.

[RonPurewal]

Ron

I apologize if my writing style seemed to be condescending or haughty. I think there was a communication gap.

not a style thing -- there's just no sense in asking whether in officially correct answer is correct.

as i said in the post above, it's the mentality with which the question is asked that matters. (i'm not talking about the tone of the writing at this point, although that clearly matters as well.)
if someone writes, directly or indirectly, "isn't this official answer wrong?" then, inevitably, that person must be entertaining some sort of thought that the official answer could, possibly, be wrong.
not a good mentality to have.

if the question is phrased instead as "what didn't i understand about this official answer?" then we've got a worthwhile conversation.

What I actually meant to write was that there were none of the explanations I agreed with. Of course I agree with the answer. There's no alternative.

understood. but, i pretty much have to reply to what you actually wrote. (:

--

the principal issue with choice (d) is the placement of the modifiers.
the key issue is this: the event that was possible before was that these people might die in childhood -- and that event was possible at one time or once. so, "died in childhood" (or "died as children", or whatever equivalent alternative) should ideally show up in one piece, and then that one piece should be modified by "once"/"at one time".

[thanghnvn]

Thank you Manhantan experts, pls, confirm the following

"that" relative pronoun on gmat is not used to refer to persons, "who" is used.

"which" on gmat refers to ONLY non restrictive information and must preceded my comma.

2 above things are different from general grammar.

in the above problem, I do not see the difference between "once" and "at a time". pls help explain.

[jlucero]

Thank you Manhantan experts, pls, confirm the following

"that" relative pronoun on gmat is not used to refer to persons, "who" is used.

Yup.

"which" on gmat refers to ONLY non restrictive information and must preceded my comma.

Yup.

in the above problem, I do not see the difference between "once" and "at a time". pls help explain.

Once = actually happened
At a time = happened to other people

All people (who once died of measles) are no longer alive.
Some people (who might have died at one time from measles) could still be alive today.

[thanghnvn]

thank you Lucero,

I do not understand the difference between "once" and "at a time" in B and D choices.

pls, explain

[RonPurewal]

thank you Lucero,

I do not understand the difference between "once" and "at a time" in B and D choices.

pls, explain

the biggest difference there lies in the placement of those modifiers.

as usual, your reasoning must begin from the intended meaning of the sentence.
here, the intended meaning is, essentially, "Once upon a time, these people might have died as children. Now, they won't die as children."

in other words, it's like this: there's this thing that would have happened in the past, but not now. what's that thing? these people would have died as children (or died in childhood, etc.).

you can't break up this construction. if you do, the sentence isn't really saying the same thing.

(b)
this choice doesn't break up the construction.

(d)
this choice does.
by doing so, this choice distorts the meaning. in particular, it seems to suggest that these people previously might have died at some point in their childhood -- but now might die at some other point in their childhood. (note that this meaning is properly excluded by the wording of choice (b).)

[AmmuS624]

thank you Lucero,

I do not understand the difference between "once" and "at a time" in B and D choices.

pls, explain

the biggest difference there lies in the placement of those modifiers.

as usual, your reasoning must begin from the intended meaning of the sentence.
here, the intended meaning is, essentially, "Once upon a time, these people might have died as children. Now, they won't die as children."

in other words, it's like this: there's this thing that would have happened in the past, but not now. what's that thing? these people would have died as children (or died in childhood, etc.).

you can't break up this construction. if you do, the sentence isn't really saying the same thing.

(b)
this choice doesn't break up the construction.

(d)
this choice does.
by doing so, this choice distorts the meaning. in particular, it seems to suggest that these people previously might have died at some point in their childhood -- but now might die at some other point in their childhood. (note that this meaning is properly excluded by the wording of choice (b).)

Thank you manhattangmat team for wonderful explanation. It helped a lot.

R/
Ammu

[tim]

:)