Ron/ Stacey Require Advice. Need to go to 730+

[RakshithG27]

First of all I want thank Ron and Stacey the amazing solutions on the forum. Solutions in SC and CR are pure gold!!!. Thanks once again for such elegant solutions.

I took the GMAT on 17 Dec 2015 and scored a 710 Q48 V38. But this score did not come easily I spent a year studying for GMAT. I am from a commerce background so subjects such as probability and geometry were really difficult and I had do a lot of sums to internalize the strategies. For an Indian a 710 is way below average. Top Colleges in India refuse to accept any score below 730 and I have already been rejected by some not well ranked Indian colleges

I want to ask is it possible for me to go from 710 to 730 in a month? I need to go from V38-> V40 and Q48->Q49 (I know Q50 is not my league).

What materials should I use if I need to go to 730 and what are the best practices?

I have finished all the mock exams in the market and I dont know what to really practice with.

For RC I did 4 LSAT passages/ 28 LSAT RC questions a day with a 60 minutes time limit- totally I did about 160 LSAT RC passages. For CR I did 15 LSAT CR sets but I was not able to internalize the strategies and in the end of my preps I felt LSAT CR was different from GMAT CR however in the main exam I felt the GMAT tested a lot of LSAT concepts, such as Correlation vs Causation and flaw in the passage etc for which there are only a very few official questions. Totally 900 CR ( 400 Official question from gmat prep software / OG/ Verbal Review ) questions. For quant I used a lot buneal's solutions but in the exam I felt the quant questions to be different from the mocks that I had taken- totally 3000 quant questions. I think in the anxiety my brains stops working. For SC I did only official questions and maintained an excel containing Ron Purewall's solutions for each answer- totally 700 SC questions. But beyond all this I dont know what to do to go beyond 710. Here are my mock scores

Kaplan 1 720
Kaplan 2 710
Kaplan 3 700
Kaplan 4 680
Kaplan 5 650

Mgmat 1 650
Mgmat 2 640
Mgmat 3 670
Mgmat 4 590
Mgmat 5 670
Mgmat 6 680
Exampack 1 Prep 3 700
Exampack 2 Prep 4 740
Exampack 1 Prep 3 Reset- 690
Exampack 2 Prep 4 Reset- 770

My hit rates are 78 percentile for CR, 81 percentile for SC and 84 percentile for RC via ESR.
In the exam, I was having a hard time in work/rate, distance/rate, mods and inequalities. Over the past few weeks I practiced extensively in these areas.

Beyond this I dont have any other mock exams to take too. Please could you guide me exactly what I need to do or practice to go from 710 to 730. I have taken unpaid leaves from office for a month. So I can spend 6-7 hours studying for the GMAT.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Rakshith.

[StaceyKoprince]

If you already scored a Q48, then you should absolutely go for a Q50. The big difference there is not in learning a ton more math but in getting better at how you take the test - how you make decisions about where to spend your time and mental energy, how you solve certain problems (efficiently, minimizing careless mistakes), and so on.

Plus, going for a little more than you need (on both Q and V) gives you some breathing room if one area falls short.

Next, whether it is possible do this in a month: I don't know. It's different for every person (and, of course, not every person will hit that goal in the first place - a 730 is really good).

But that question is essentially irrelevant. You want a 730. Go for it. If you need more than a month and have the flexibility to spend more time, dos o. If you have a deadline in a month...still go for it anyway. That month is going to pass, either way. You might as well know that you gave it your best shot!

You talk about doing lots and lots (and lots!) of problems. That's not what's going to get you to 730. What's going to get you to 730 is really picking apart and analyzing the problems that you do practice. Read this (right now):
http://tinyurl.com/2ndlevelofgmat

Why did I tell you to read that right now?

Most of what you learn comes after you've picked your answer to a problem. You don't learn much, comparatively, while literally in the act of doing the problem - especially not at the highest levels. So your task now is to go back to problems you've already done - start with OG / official source materials and only move beyond that if you have to - and make sure that you've actually learned the relevant take-aways from that problem that could be applied to different-but-similar problems in future.

These different-but-similar problems are not simply the same problem with different numbers or the same sentence structure with different words. The problems can look decently different. But some aspect of the thinking necessary to the problemis the same, and you can re-use that thought process on the new problem to increase both your efficiency and your chances of success. See whether you can make connections between OG problems. This is a standardized test: there are only so many different ways they can construct these problems and still be similar enough to be standardized across all testers.

Here's an example of what I mean:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/2012/ ... -Problems/

I wrote that a while ago; the two OG problems I cited are from older books and they have both since been pulled from the current books. At least one is now in GMATPrep instead. So just do a google search based on the old book names / numbers to see whether you can find them posted somewhere. (I can't post them for copyright reasons.) You might even try looking them up on Amazon to see whether there are searchable versions posted there - they might be too old, though.

LSAT LR (logical reasoning) and GMAT CR are different in certain ways. There are things that LSAT LR tests that GMAT doesn't test at all, so if you are going to use LSAT, it's important to know what you can and cannot port over to GMAT. For that reason, I often tell people not to use LSAT LR.

It is true that there are some things that are tested on GMAT but not frequently, and so there aren't a ton of official examples. But remember that your goal is not to do tons and tons of problems. Your goal is to learn deeply from the problems that you study - and you can do that from the GMAT-sourced problems, even if there are fewer of them.

I just got to the end of your post. It's not a great idea to spend 6 to 7 hours a day studying for the GMAT. Your brain can learn only so many new things at once. If you overload it, your brain will just make poor connections / memories. And you will feel that you have to keep studying more and more, just making the problem worse. You need to learn how to study better, and that does not mean studying more. If you can change this mindset, then you may be able to lift yourself another 20 points. If you don't, then your chances are not as good.

Use the article I posted up above along with these:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... -the-gmat/
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2015/07/ ... s-say-what
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... -the-gmat/

https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... ly-part-1/
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2015/09/ ... gmat-quant

I'm not even going to address your question about practice tests. You don't need any CATs right now. You have more than enough data to know your strengths and weaknesses. Ignore CATs for a while and learn how to study in the way described above.

You may also want to read this exchange I had with another student recently:
struggle-to-improve-in-math-t32707.html

Pay particular attention to my post on Jan 8th.

Okay. Think about all of that. Then tell me what you need to change about your overall approach / mindset and how you propose to build those new habits.

[RakshithG27]

If you already scored a Q48, then you should absolutely go for a Q50. The big difference there is not in learning a ton more math but in getting better at how you take the test - how you make decisions about where to spend your time and mental energy, how you solve certain problems (efficiently, minimizing careless mistakes), and so on.

Plus, going for a little more than you need (on both Q and V) gives you some breathing room if one area falls short.

Next, whether it is possible do this in a month: I don't know. It's different for every person (and, of course, not every person will hit that goal in the first place - a 730 is really good).

But that question is essentially irrelevant. You want a 730. Go for it. If you need more than a month and have the flexibility to spend more time, dos o. If you have a deadline in a month...still go for it anyway. That month is going to pass, either way. You might as well know that you gave it your best shot!

You talk about doing lots and lots (and lots!) of problems. That's not what's going to get you to 730. What's going to get you to 730 is really picking apart and analyzing the problems that you do practice. Read this (right now):
http://tinyurl.com/2ndlevelofgmat

Why did I tell you to read that right now?

Most of what you learn comes after you've picked your answer to a problem. You don't learn much, comparatively, while literally in the act of doing the problem - especially not at the highest levels. So your task now is to go back to problems you've already done - start with OG / official source materials and only move beyond that if you have to - and make sure that you've actually learned the relevant take-aways from that problem that could be applied to different-but-similar problems in future.

These different-but-similar problems are not simply the same problem with different numbers or the same sentence structure with different words. The problems can look decently different. But some aspect of the thinking necessary to the problemis the same, and you can re-use that thought process on the new problem to increase both your efficiency and your chances of success. See whether you can make connections between OG problems. This is a standardized test: there are only so many different ways they can construct these problems and still be similar enough to be standardized across all testers.

Here's an example of what I mean:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/2012/ ... -Problems/

I wrote that a while ago; the two OG problems I cited are from older books and they have both since been pulled from the current books. At least one is now in GMATPrep instead. So just do a google search based on the old book names / numbers to see whether you can find them posted somewhere. (I can't post them for copyright reasons.) You might even try looking them up on Amazon to see whether there are searchable versions posted there - they might be too old, though.

LSAT LR (logical reasoning) and GMAT CR are different in certain ways. There are things that LSAT LR tests that GMAT doesn't test at all, so if you are going to use LSAT, it's important to know what you can and cannot port over to GMAT. For that reason, I often tell people not to use LSAT LR.

It is true that there are some things that are tested on GMAT but not frequently, and so there aren't a ton of official examples. But remember that your goal is not to do tons and tons of problems. Your goal is to learn deeply from the problems that you study - and you can do that from the GMAT-sourced problems, even if there are fewer of them.

I just got to the end of your post. It's not a great idea to spend 6 to 7 hours a day studying for the GMAT. Your brain can learn only so many new things at once. If you overload it, your brain will just make poor connections / memories. And you will feel that you have to keep studying more and more, just making the problem worse. You need to learn how to study better, and that does not mean studying more. If you can change this mindset, then you may be able to lift yourself another 20 points. If you don't, then your chances are not as good.

Use the article I posted up above along with these:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... -the-gmat/
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2015/07/ ... s-say-what
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... -the-gmat/

https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... ly-part-1/
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2015/09/ ... gmat-quant

I'm not even going to address your question about practice tests. You don't need any CATs right now. You have more than enough data to know your strengths and weaknesses. Ignore CATs for a while and learn how to study in the way described above.

You may also want to read this exchange I had with another student recently:
struggle-to-improve-in-math-t32707.html

Pay particular attention to my post on Jan 8th.

Okay. Think about all of that. Then tell me what you need to change about your overall approach / mindset and how you propose to build those new habits.

Hi Stacey,

Thank you for replying. BTW I saw the 'Thursday's with Ron' July 10 2014 SC session conducted by you, brilliant video. Till now I have only read your posts but after seeing the way you were solving sums, I was totally blown away. Are there more videos by you? (P.S I searched entire 'Thursdays with Ron' and could find only one video of yours there )

Coming to the previous post, Yes I identified my weak topics and have started covering them. I want to specifically ask about RC. Prior to my GMAT exam on 17th Dec 2015 I had a hard time finding good RC material so I did a lot of LSAT prep tests after exhausting all the official materials I could find from OG's. I did close to 150 LSAT RC passages and I scored reasonably. I got a 84 percentile in RC via ESR, also my mean timing per question in RC is 2 minutes. In LSAT I used to 4 LSAT passages (28 questions) in 60 minutes. Now I want to push my RC to 90+ percentiles. I use the conventional method- Read the first question from the passage, read the passage for 3-4 minutes till I get a decent view of what is going on, and then attack the questions. But I think I am taking way too much of time using conventional techniques. I want to combine conventional strategies with POE. Is there any material that can teach POE? I have watched the 5 RC videos by Ron Purewal in 'Thursdays with Ron' but I definitely need more help.

Is reading 'How to read faster and better' by Norman Lewis a good investment for GMAT? Or should I read 'Manhattan RC 6th Edition'? I know I should not be comparing books ,especially when I am asking the author of the book, but to be frank I have never seen any Manhattan Instructors marketing their own material rather you guys give a very good advice on do's and dont's.

Please let me know what I should do to go from 84 percentile to 90+ percentile.

Thanks in Advance,
Rakshith.

[RakshithG27]

Hi Stacey,

I also wanted to ask at 84 percentile in RC , how many mistake would I have made in RC? Around 4 out 12 questions?

Thanks,
Rakshith

[StaceyKoprince]

I'm glad you liked the video! Thanks for the kind words. That was the only time that I subbed for Ron, but I did a number of the OG solution videos in our GMAT Navigator program. I don't have a list of specifically which ones I did, but if you just use that program in general, you'll run across my videos eventually - there are a decent number.

I don't know how many mistakes you'd have to be at a certain percentile - and I don't think there's one set number anyway. It also depends on the range of difficulty levels that you were offered (of that type) in the first place and there's no way to know that. And, anyway, it's not even useful to know. I mean, if I told you, hey, you can only miss 2 questions to get some specific score, would that somehow make you more able to miss only 2 questions?

Of course not. You'd just stress yourself out wondering whether you'd kept it to 2 or gotten more wrong. When a question is in front of you, you can either do it or not. That's all that matters.

If you're hitting 84th percentile, then that means you're getting lots of questions correct in the first place, and of the ones you get wrong, you're probably mostly able to narrow down to 2 answers. You probably don't see many RCs where you think, "Huh? I have no idea what they're talking about." So the real distinction here is how to decide between those last two: the correct answer and the most tempting wrong answer.

And to do that, you really need to understand how the test writers get you to fall into traps. When you're reviewing, review everything. Identify ALL of the questions on which you narrowed to two and guessed, even when you guessed right.

Answer these questions:
1) why was the wrong answer so tempting? why did it look like it might be right? (be as explicit as possible; also, now you know this is not a good reason to pick an answer)
2) why was it actually wrong? what specific words indicate that it is wrong and how did I overlook those clues the first time?
3) why did the right answer seem wrong? what made it so tempting to cross off the right answer? why were those things actually okay; what was my error in thinking that they were wrong? (also, now you know that this is not a good reason to eliminate an answer)
4) why was it actually right?

The above works for all of verbal, not just RC.

I haven't read "How to Read Better and Faster," so I can't compare that to another book. (And, yes, it's hard to compare at all when I'm the co-author of the other book in question. ) I will say that, in general, the GMAT is a very specific thing, so you want to make sure that whatever you use is geared specifically towards what's going to happen on the GMAT*. There are things I would use on the GMAT that I wouldn't use in the real world, even when I want to read something fast - eg, a big factor on the GMAT is knowing what NOT to pay attention to not only because you have limited time but also because some of that detail is just there to distract / confuse you. So the question I would have about any non-GMAT (or non-test-prep) book is: will this be broadly applicable to GMAT situations?

(*Caveat for others reading this: there are times I recommend that people work on broader reading skills first - eg, someone who speaks English as a second language, did undergrad studies in another language, and doesn't read much in English. That person might need to work on some more general reading speed and comprehension materials before then gearing up specifically for the GMAT. But you're at 84th percentile; this doesn't apply to you!)

If Lewis also gets into standardized testing-type scenarios, then great. If not...well, if not, I would want to ask a GMAT teacher who has read the book. So it's a good question to ask - I just haven't read it!

I think our book is good - but I'm biased, obviously! That's why I don't go around recommending it. (I will say that I am proud of that book, if that means anything.

But really, I'd recommend that you decide: go look it up on Amazon or at a local bookstore and just read some of it to see what you think. (Would love to hear your feedback.)