Recently documented examples of neurogenesis

[RonPurewal]

Nah. "When" can be used in those situations, too.

The primary difference between "if" and "when" is that "when" implies that the precipitating event will definitely happen.
"Can" is a separate issue; that's an issue of whether the consequence or accompanying situation is uncertain.

E.g.,

When I eat white rice, I can easily eat too much, because pure starch isn't filling.
If I eat white rice, I can easily eat too much, because pure starch isn't filling.
These two sentences express the same possibility of overeating. The difference is that the first one ("When I eat white rice") implies that there are definitely occasions on which I eat white rice, while the second one makes no such implication.
I could make the second statement even if I know I'll never eat white rice again.

[lindaliu9273]

Ron,

Can you please explain why they is ambiguous in B and C, and not in D, they is referring to mice and Canaries respectively in B & C.

"they" is totally wrong in (d). it would automatically refer to "neurons", since "canaries' " is possessive and therefore ineligible to be the referent.

similarly, (c) has incorrect pronouns (the first "they" would automatically be "brains", and the second would automatically be "neurons").

(b) has ambiguous pronouns.

i'm not sure exactly what question you're trying to ask.

Hi Ron,

Besides "they" cannot refer to "neurons'" and "canaries' " in c/d, is it also wrong because "they and their" should always refer to they same thing in a sentece?

Thanks!

[RonPurewal]

In two completely different parts of the sentence"”"”with a clear context"”"”it's possible to have "they" mean two different things.

E.g.,
Cats view their owners as xxxxxx, while dogs view theirs as yyyy.
This sentence is fine. The first pronoun ("their") refers to cats, while the second ("theirs") refers to dogs.

[lindaliu9273]

In two completely different parts of the sentence"”"”with a clear context"”"”it's possible to have "they" mean two different things.

E.g.,
Cats view their owners as xxxxxx, while dogs view theirs as yyyy.
This sentence is fine. The first pronoun ("their") refers to cats, while the second ("theirs") refers to dogs.

Thanks a lot!

[RonPurewal]

You're welcome.

[Crisc419]

What is wrong with B, except it is not appropriate to say " examples of neurogenesis include mice",
because when i first read the sentence, i am not sure about the meaning of "neurogenesis".

In B, I thought "they" refers to mice.

[Crisc419]

Ron,

Can you please explain why they is ambiguous in B and C, and not in D, they is referring to mice and Canaries respectively in B & C.

"they" is totally wrong in (d). it would automatically refer to "neurons", since "canaries' " is possessive and therefore ineligible to be the referent.

similarly, (c) has incorrect pronouns (the first "they" would automatically be "brains", and the second would automatically be "neurons").

(b) has ambiguous pronouns.

i'm not sure exactly what question you're trying to ask.

Sorry to bump this up again, but i really have some confuses about pronouns.
In my mind, if two clauses have parallel constructions, then the pronoun in the later clause will automatically refer to the counterpart in the earlier clause.

Choice B:
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include mice whose brains grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries whose neurons increase when they learn new songs.

"they " will automatically refer to "documented examples"

Choice C:
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include mice's brains that grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries' neurons that increase when they learn new songs.

"they" will automatically refer to "documented examples"

After reading your post, i guess maybe the pronoun just refer to the nearest noun?

Could you explain the very basic and general principles about how the pronoun will automatically refer to which NOUN in sentences.

Thanks.

Cris.

[RonPurewal]

• you should already understand the EXACT intended meaning of the sentence. in other words, you should ALREADY know EXACTLY what each pronoun is supposed to stand for, BEFORE you look at the choices.
this is a function of common sense + context.

• when you see a pronoun:
—what's the intended meaning?
—is this a NOUN? (if not, the pronoun is incorrect)
—if it's a noun, does it MATCH the pronoun in terms of singular/plural? (if so, the pronoun is fine; if not, the pronoun is incorrect)

that's pretty much it.

__

[RonPurewal]

so, in this sentence:

in context it's perfectly clear that "they" is supposed to mean "mice". ("they" = "documented examples" is an absurd interpretation; if you are even thinking about interpretations like that, you are approaching SC in a very, very bad way.)

so... in that answer choice:

• is "mice" a NOUN?
yes.

• "they" is plural. is "mice" plural?
yes.

done -- the pronoun is fine.

don't take things that aren't complicated and make them complicated!

[Crisc419]

so, in this sentence:

in context it's perfectly clear that "they" is supposed to mean "mice". ("they" = "documented examples" is an absurd interpretation; if you are even thinking about interpretations like that, you are approaching SC in a very, very bad way.)

so... in that answer choice:

• is "mice" a NOUN?
yes.

• "they" is plural. is "mice" plural?
yes.

done -- the pronoun is fine.

don't take things that aren't complicated and make them complicated!

actually, i do use my head to read the meaning not just the grammar of one sentence.And i always follow your advice about pronoun, just see two things in one sentence.
does the pronoun have a noun to refer to ?and do the pronoun and the noun agree in number?

maybe i did not express myself clearly. yes, i know the pronous should refer the mice.
if we can use our logic, then chioce B and C have no problem , "they" could refer to mice,
my question is why you interpret "they" in chioce B and C refer to "brains" rather than mice?

if we cannot use our logic, then "they" in chioce B and C should not refer to "documented examples"?and now why you interpret "they" refer to "brains" rather than "documented examples" ? is it because "brain" is much closer ?

Choice B :
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include mice whose brains grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries whose neurons increase when they learn new songs.

Choice C:
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include mice's brains that grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries' neurons that increase when they learn new songs.

[RonPurewal]

the pronouns aren't the issue in those choices.

the issue is that those choices are not telling the truth! they express the wrong meaning!

we need 2 examples of the PRODUCTION of new brain cells.

B/
mice and canaries are not examples of the PRODUCTION of brain cells.

C/
mice's brains and canaries' neurons are not examples of the PRODUCTION of brain cells (rather, they are examples of the brains or brain cells themselves).

... as opposed to the correct answer
E/
brain growth and an increase in neurons absolutely ARE examples of the PRODUCTION of new brain cells.

[JbhB682]

Hi Ron.
I do not understand the difference between D ("mice when") and E ("mice that").
In both cases, when/that are modifying mice.
Thanks

if you say "when + PAST PARTICIPLE", then this automatically applies to the SUBJECT of the clause to which it's attached.

if i say
iron accumulates rust when submerged in water
then it's the iron, not the rust, that's submerged in water.

this strikes choice (d), since the SUBJECT is "recently documented examples", not "mice" as required.

Hi - is this only for "when" or other relative noun modifiers like who/in which/where / whom / which also ?

If only "when" - just curious, why is "when" so different compared to the other relative modifiers..

[JbhB682]

Hi Experts - "when" is a noun modifier marker (relative pronoun) , used to modify a noun event or time such as a period, age, year or decade

-- can we can eliminate A,B,C and D based on the fact that the noun closest to "When" is a not a time event

[JbhB682]

Hi Experts - on option D

The X element is a action noun : Growth (Brain is an adjective) -- everything else is a modifier

Is the Y element ["increase"] an action noun as well ?

[JbhB682]

Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

(D) the brain growth in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or the increase in canaries' neurons when they
(E) brain growth in mice that are placed in a stimulating environment or an increase in neurons in canaries that

Hi Experts - wanted to focus on the modifiers in red in option D and Option E specifically.

Why in option D, is the red modifier referring to the subject (Brain growth) but in option E, the that modifier in red is referring to mice (The object within the preposition)

I have read in other situations, the object of a preposition cannot be a subject so I am surprised in option E - the that modifier in red can refer to the object of a preposition and not "brain growth" in option E