Please guide me from 660 to 720

[shrutipurohit]

Hi, I have been preparing for around 2 months now and took my 1st attempt last week. I scored a pathetic 660 (47 Q, 34 V). Though I was scoring pretty OK on the GMAT prep tests-
GMATPrep-2 - 730- (41V, 48Q-left 3 quest unanswered!)- 4 days before my actual GMAT.
Following is a summary of my scores right from the first diagonostic test:

Princeton Review- test 1- 610 (32V)
------1 MONTH------
Princeton Review- test 2- 650 (40-Q, 40V)
------15 DAYS--------
Princeton Review- test 3- 690 (51-Q, 32V)
-----6 DAYS---------
GMATPrep-1 - 710-(50Q,36V)
-----5 DAYS--------
Princeton Review- test 4- 690 (49-Q, 34V)
-----6 DAYS-------
MGMAT CAT-1- 670 (47Q, 34 V)
----4 DAYS------
GMAT Prep-2- 730 (48Q, 41V) (Q-left3 quest unanswered!)
----4days---------
Actual GMAT-Attempt-1- 660 (47Q, 34V) (last day of August '11)

The quant was way easier than MGMAT and GMAT Prep and hence I guess I was penalized heavily for every wrong answer. Am sure I haven't made more than 5 mistakes. Rest God and GMAT knows!
I am planning to take GMAT as soon as possible- 15 days from today, as my job has started to take its toll over me and I have 15-20 days more before I start my new project.
Please guide me how I should prepare and raise my score in Verbal to get a 40+ and do better in Quants to get a 50. (Books, strategy) I want a score of 720 or above and am ready to do anything for it in available time (4-6 hours a day. ) I am an engineer and I don’t have problem with basics in Quants. Please guide me!
I have enrolled for MGMAT test series also.
Books done: Verbal- OG-12,11, MGMAT Stategy guides (RC,CR)
Princeton Review Online Material, PR-Verbal workout, GMAT Club-Forum quest and tests, and some others.

[StaceyKoprince]

The quant was way easier than MGMAT and GMAT Prep and hence I guess I was penalized heavily for every wrong answer. Am sure I haven't made more than 5 mistakes.

If I were the kind of person who bets, I'd bet you that you're wrong. :) The GMAT test writers are absolute experts in writing questions that seem very simple and straightforward but are actually unbelievably sophisticated / tricky. If you really had gotten only 5 wrong, you'd have scored a 50 or 51.

So, interesting. It looks like your MGMAT and TPR scores were roughly in range with your real test score, but your GMATPrep scores were a lot higher. In particular, your verbal score on the 2nd GMATprep was *really* high compared to all of your other verbal scores. Why?

Did you take all of those tests under 100% official conditions? Did you do the essays? Did you limit yourself to two 8-minute breaks? How did you deviate / change things from test to test?

You've asked me to tell you how to get your verbal from 34 to 40+ in 15 days. I wish I had an answer for you, but I don't - it's next to impossible to raise your score that much in that timeframe.

I can give you some ideas about things to do in general but (a) I need more data to give more specific advice, and (b) lifting your score by that much is going to take a lot longer than 15 days.

In general, most of your materials are of the practice-question variety. You don't list many sources for how you learned how to get better at the specific material (with the exception of the MGMAT CR and RC strategy guides). I don't know what the TPR materials consisted of - did they actually provide lessons for how to get better? Or were they mostly sets of practice problems?

Next, use the below article to analyze your most recent MGMAT test (and also tell us any ways in which you deviated from official test conditions while taking that particular test):
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... ice-tests/

That data will help us to give you detailed advice based upon your specific strengths and weaknesses.

Your current quant level is appropriate for our new Advanced Quant book. You may want to take a look at that and see whether you think it will be useful (it's designed to take people who are currently around the 75th to 80th percentile and get them to the 90th+ percentile on quant).

[shrutipurohit]

HI Stacey, thanks a lot for replying. I am planning to take 15th Sep as my Retake date. TPR material did had strategy guide. Also, I had bought Manhattan SC guide a few days back and went through it. I am more confident now as far as verb tense errors are concerned (major share of my mistakes).

For quantitative, I took TPR results too seriously and did not really prepare as much as for verbal except from TPR’s Online material, 800score tests and TPR tests. Never touched OG-Q as I felt the questions given in OG12 were far too easy for any valuable practice (now I guess it was a mistake as I am not scoring above 48 in any test) In MGMAT-3, that I wrote yesterday, I scored a 48 in Q. However, even that score is inflated as I got 4 out of 9 correct in my last 9 mindless clicks. Attached is my performance in yesterday's test. I was pathetic in my pacing. How to improve and from where shall I practice? I have official guide for Quantitative.
I have also tried four 800Score tests for both V and Q. my performance in Q was bad (48, 43, 45 and 51) though I felt many questions out of sync with GMAT type.

GMAT Prep inflated verbal score -
Probably because I got 3 tough CR questions on exactly the same pattern as I had practiced earlier and did them correctly. I gave all my exams in almost exact testing conditions with AWA. Actual GMAT was almost the same level or easier till 18th question after which it got too tough to handle- specifically RC, ended up at 34
Also, whenever I gave exam in 3pm to 7pm slot, I scored better than in morning 10.30 slot :P lol

In real GMAT (10:30am :/), as I reached 21st Q in Verbal, I was too tired already and was almost yawning though tensed!
Pacing and accuracy in CR are the visible concerns. Please guide to improve these and any other comments are most welcome.
I have been practicing for 20 days now since my 1st GMAT Attempt

Link to my performance :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... E&hl=en_US

I will upload my other performances as well.

[StaceyKoprince]

For security reasons, we're not allowed to download files. Please type in your analysis (or copy and paste). Note that we're not necessarily looking for all of the data (although you are welcome to share that if you want to input it). We're looking for a summary and for ideas about what you think it all means - that's the kind of skill that you need to develop (and we'll help).

Okay, so timing is definitely a problem; read this article and start doing what it says:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... anagement/

I have to warn you - it typically takes people 4 to 6 weeks to correct a significant timing problem, and from what you've typed, you do have a significant timing problem. FYI - mid-Sep likely won't be enough time to fix the timing problem.

You mention CR being a major problem. Here are some articles to help:

http://www.manhattangmat.com/articles/C ... n-type.cfm

http://www.manhattangmat.com/articles/CR-assumption.cfm
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2009/10/ ... -questions
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... r-problem/
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2011/04/ ... en-problem

Those hit the main question types; there are also more minor types, but concentrate on those first and then come back when you feel ready to dig deeper. :)

Finally, you mention being tired and stressed during the test; read this article:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... you-crazy/

[shrutipurohit]

Okay, so timing is definitely a problem; read this article and start doing what it says:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... anagement/

I have to warn you - it typically takes people 4 to 6 weeks to correct a significant timing problem, and from what you've typed, you do have a significant timing problem. FYI - mid-Sep likely won't be enough time to fix the timing problem.

You mention CR being a major problem. Here are some articles to help:

http://www.manhattangmat.com/articles/C ... n-type.cfm

http://www.manhattangmat.com/articles/CR-assumption.cfm
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2009/10/ ... -questions
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... r-problem/
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2011/04/ ... en-problem

Those hit the main question types; there are also more minor types, but concentrate on those first and then come back when you feel ready to dig deeper. :)

Finally, you mention being tired and stressed during the test; read this article:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... you-crazy/

Hi stacey,

I think I have kinda lost it. I read all the articles you suggested and tried to apply them in my studies. Though they helped me to understand what exactly am I supposed to do, I haven't scored more than 690 on MGMAT tests. Also, in 800 score tests, i am always doing mistakes (usually 3 in a row) in question no. 16 to 31. As I try to increase my pace in this zone which i inferred to be safer zone to increase the pace (and thus make mistakes :/
I am constantly making around 9 to 14 questions wrong in total, most of them concentrated in this middle zone. In first 15 questions, i get 1-2 wrong and in last 10 questions, around 3 and around 6 mistakes in Q 16 to 31. This reduces my score to 32-35.

In MGMAT, I have clearly identified Inference questions in RC to be the culprit. When I practice from OGs (10,11,12), I don't do that bad.. as in 1-2 out of 7-8 questions are wrong in RC.

I read powerscore CR and Manhattan CR strat books which gave me confidence in CR and most of the times, I perform pretty OK.
For RC, I re read Manhattan RC strat book.

In conclusion, my trouble is RC Inference type questions and the amount of time I put in RC. Though I am kinda unsure if I would be able to score any more than 35 on Verbal, I just want to know if anything may be done to increase it.I need to give GMAT now in another 10 days for sure, please suggest what can be done in this short time. I am equipped with techniques but still i make mistakes in tough questions. I know that's an abstract question but still if you could make out what I may be missing.
The mistakes happen more often while on real test than on individual practice tests. So stamina and concentration span is another culprit.
I have improved on pacing though. 800score test scores are killing me. In MGMAT, Pacing hasnt improved much as I get real diff questions by 16th. In last test (MGMAT-4) , I got 2 wrong out of first 15,

5 wrong out of first 25 (3 wrong in a row (all RC),);
TOTAL 12 Wrong, 3 unattempted, ended at pathetic 33.

[shrutipurohit]

I have finally got my internal clock set and timing problem is kinda solved though of course far from totally. Also, I have identified my major problem areas- odds and even, and divisibility & prime in No. Prop, overlapping sets, statistics and polygon and a bit of probability in Quant section.I am thinking to buy advanced quant of Manhattan for pushing my score from 47-48 to 49-50 which is crucial for me to get 700+.
In verbal, I have improved from 33-34 to 36 which I want to push to 37. If I accomplish these two things, i will be able to get the much coveted 700-720 score from the present range of 680-690.

My question: Am I too late already for retake?

whats the latest i can take it safely (though i know the 1st safe zone is already over..!)

Second Question: What do I need to do to raise my score in verbal and is Advanced quant book the right answer to my quant problem?

I have done Powerscore CR and Manhattan guides. I need to improve on convoluted RCs and a bit more on CR.

Kindly see my last post as well for my plight if time permits!
I took the 5th MGMAT today and scored 48 Q and 36 V. Donno whats blocking me to get any higher faster. :/ :(

[StaceyKoprince]

Hi, I'm sorry it has taken so long for me to reply. I think you must have added your second post right when I was posting last time, so that moved your 28 Sep post later in the queue, and then I didn't see the 6 Oct update until now.

You are always going to get a number of questions wrong - the key is not to reduce the number of questions wrong. The key is to change the mix of questions that you are answering correctly vs. incorrectly. As you get better, you'll be given a harder mix of problems, so the number correct doesn't change all that much (except at the very highest levels).

TOTAL 12 Wrong, 3 unattempted

The problem isn't that you got 12 wrong but that you left 3 blank. Leaving questions blank will KILL your score - you cannot leave questions blank.

You mention that you struggle with MGMAT inference questions, but not OG12 inference questions. That could be about timing and stamina (OG12 is not a full-length test) or it could just be due to differences in the ways the questions were written (since MGMAT and OG12 questions are not written by the same writer). How do you do on GMATPrep inference questions? That should help tell us whether it's likely to be a problem on the real GMAT.

If inference really is a problem for the real thing, this might help:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/articles/a ... estion.cfm

Okay, now I'm getting to your second post. Nice! You've been making good improvement! Re: the Advanced Quant book, only do that if you have at least 2 weeks (ideally longer) to work with it. It's not about just plowing through the exercises in that book - that book tries to teach you how to study, how to think through problems, how to figure out / teach yourself new ways of looking at things. It's not something you can cram. But if you have the time, then yes, your score is at the right point to use that book.

You ask whether you are "too late already for retake?" I'm not sure what you mean... too late for what? Are you talking about deadlines? You'd have to check to see what the deadlines are for wherever you're planning to apply.

For verbal, if you've gotten to 36 already and you're just looking to get 1 more point up, just keep doing what you've already been doing. You're almost there. You're at the point in verbal, too, where you'd probably benefit from answer choice analysis. In addition to the usual analysis (why are the wrong ones wrong and why is the right one right), start asking yourself:
1) why was the wrong answer so tempting (or why would it be to some people)? why did it look like it might be right? (be as explicit as possible; also, now you know this is not a good reason to pick an answer)
2) why did (or would) the right answer seem wrong? what made it so tempting to cross off the right answer? why were those things actually okay; what was my error (or someone's error) in thinking that they were wrong? (also, now you know that this is not a good reason to eliminate an answer)

[shrutipurohit]

Hi Stacey, :/ :(

Though I prepared well for the exam and took it with utmost sincerity, i failed again. :(

49--31 = 660 (1st attempt: 47--34=660)
I scored a 49 in Quant in my 2nd attempt. (reappeared for the test in October last week) However, the Verbal section, in which I was consistently scoring 35-36 and had improved a lot on my SC and RC, killed my score. Though I know it is utterly stupid to think it this way, but the verbal section that I got on my second attempt, was as horribly difficult as it can get. None of the SC (right from the 5th question) was such, which can be answered in a minute let alone 40 secs. Every (and I mean it!) SC question was 3 lines long and was underlined from 1st letter to last! :/ The RC were a bigger nightmare. None of them was short or in fact all the passages were long type with really awkward questions ! CR was okay.
I don't know why i felt it so unusually difficult, but I ended with a pathetically pathetic 31. (against a 34 in my 1st attempt, when I had messed a bit with RC, a 5.0 on AWA- same as 1st attempt)
So I got stuck at a 660.. yet again. :/

The last 3 MGMAT that I gave ranged from 680-700, so i know I wasn't doing that great but still 660! I was scoring 730-740 in GMAT Prep and had markedly improved my SC and RC accuracy in every kind of test.

All in all I am totally shattered as this was my 2nd attempt.
I have started applying and am writing my essays. Is this the end?

I know it's improbable to get any good school from rank 15 to rank 60 with this kinda score.
I have a 2.2 years of work experience in an Automobile major (Mahindra and Mahindra) in Sales and Marketing, ranging from Channel sales (1 year),
--Sales planning and sales support (8 monce) and now
--Business Development along with a cross functional project in ---Supply chain -'Warehouse network re engineering' for MNM.

---Extra curriculars include starting an entrepreneurship club in college and building a team of 30 executives starting with 2.
---I also did a technical project which was funded by Govt. of India under Technology entrepreneurship program.
---I was awarded High performer of the year by my company.

I know it's a wrong place to ask this, but just for the sake of continuity of our conversation... Please suggest.
I have considered applying in MBA program in some of these:
--Lancaster Univ,
--Vanderbilt,
--Boston Univ,
--Thundirbird,
--SDA Bocconi (Italy),
--UK University,
--NUS (as its free to apply :P)
--Nanyang (though its v improbable)

Am I going right? Because I don't think I can improve my GMAT after all this debacle and third attempt would probably be too much. Also, I don't have time now.
Waiting eagerly for your response.

[StaceyKoprince]

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time with the test. :(

The reason this is the wrong folder to ask about admissions stuff is that I'm not an admissions expert. I have no idea how to advise you on that kind of thing - I just know about the GMAT.

It's my understanding that a 660 is a great score for schools ranked 15 to 60 - it's only the top 10 or 15 that want to see 700 kinds of scores. I just looked at BU's website, for example, and it says that their students have an average GMAT score of about 630. You're 30 points above that! So I would think that you're actually in a good position with respect to the GMAT - but you should really talk to an admissions consultant to be sure, since this is definitely not my area of expertise. (And I really don't know how the schools look at work experience or anything else.)

It sounds like you both got a tough verbal section and maybe got pretty stressed out by it, which would just make things even harder. If you do decide to take the test again, let me know - but right now I think you should go talk to an admissions consultant. You might find that you don't even need to think about taking the test again.

[77.sumeet]

Hey Shruti,

BU is definitely in reckoning but Vanderbilt and Thunderbird might be a push. Infact I have few super smart friends from Vanderbilt who had scores such as 770 and 740.

I cant comment about European Univs.

Lastly getting from 660 to 720 will need some effort. Good Luck.

Sumeet

[StaceyKoprince]

Thanks for commenting, Sumeet!

[shrutipurohit]

Thanks a lot Stacey and thanks for the comment Sumeet.

I would better focus on BU right now. If you have any other universities in mind matching my profile and score, please let me know. It would be a great help.
I went to a consultant from PR...though am not sure if he is all that great, so alternate views would be greatly appreciated.

I won't let all this time and effort waste without trying in a few Universities! :/ :P

[StaceyKoprince]

Definitely seek out some admissions consultants yourself - I really don't know the admissions side of things. There's a folder here called "Ask an Admissions Consultant" (or something like that) and I know there are also admissions consultants who answer questions at Beat The GMAT (www.beatthegmat.com). :)

[shrutipurohit]

Hi Stacey...

I have started the application and am applying both in Asian as well as American B Schools.

The question: Does a good score in TOEFL IBT in any way supplement or help in slightest of the ways to compensate for a low Verbal score in GMAT? (31 :/ )

I took TOEFL and scored a 117 with 29 in reading, 28 in writing and 30 in both Speaking and Listening.

[priyankaparanjape]

Hi Stacey,
MGMAT1 Q39,V35 - 620 -5/10/11
GMAT prep -1 560 do not remember the split
MGMAT2 Q39,V37 - 630 -22/11/11
MGMAT3 Q46,V36 - 680 30/11/11
GMAT prep-1 repeat - 710 sorry no split , 2-3 verbal questions repeated, no repeated questions in maths
MGMAT4 Q46,V33 - 650 05/12/11
MGMAT5 Q47,V35 - 680 - 07/12/11
Today I took GMAT prep-2 scored 620 :( , Q49, V30

I took AWA for last 2 MGMATS & GMAt prep today & otherwise i strictly stuck to 3 hours (no breaks, with timer on)

I have been preparing since last 3 months & have booked a GMAT date on 19th December - I am aiming at 680+, pls help me with the way i should study in next 8 days. Should I concentrate on giving more tests (1 MGMAT left) or revising the content.
In verbal, SC seems to be the problem area & with RC, if i understand the passage well I rarely make mistakes.
Thanks,Priyanka.