No improvement in scores!

[StaceyKoprince]

Good luck - let us know how it goes!

[mdinerstein]

Hi GMAT85,

Excellent! Just e-mail Student Services at studentservices@manhattangmat.com or call us at 800-576-4628 and provide us with your account information. Afterwards, you can get set up with an extension.

Good luck studying!

Best,

Michael Dinerstein
Marketing and Student Services
michael@manhattangmat.com
212-721-7400
800-576-4628

[MG]

GMAT85 - I am in the same boat as you. I have taken the GMAT before. I have scored in the 580 to 620 range. I am doing well on the Quant (45 is what my recent tests are throwing up). I am frustrated with Verbal, as I linger around in the 30 somethings. If it helps, I have taken the GMAT 6 times. Knock on wood - you will get your desried score in your upcoing attempt.

I think you have got some great advice from Michael and Stacey.

Michael / Stacey - I have a few questions for you, and I hope it is ok to post them on GMAT 85's thread.

I have taken the GMAT 6 times. Below is a history:

1st attempt - 620 (Q - 80%, V- 67%) - Sept 2002
2nd attempt - 600 (Q - 80%, V- 67%) - Oct 2002
3rd attempt - 580 (Q - 80%, V- 64%) - Nov 2002
4th attempt - 600 (Q - 80%, V- 67%) - Dec 2003
5th attempt - 460 (dont recall breakup) - Oct 2005
6th attempt - 600 (dont recall breakup) -Dec 2006
7th attempt - Aug or Sept 2008

I think my two best attempts were my first attempt and my 6th attempt, where I truly felt prepared. Although in my first attempt, I was anxious like anything. At the end of Math, I was super excited that Math went well and I was like - I know I will crack verbal. Doing verbal, at some point, my brain got tired and I was shocked to see a 620. Anyways, I did nothing new in my 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th attempts. I was only more aware of my problems with Verbal - slow reading, etc. I have made progress on that front. My 6th attempt - I was more relaxed but had only 2.5 weeks of full-time prep.

Now I have been prepping since Jan 2008 on and off (more off than on), but I do feel better about Math (I have been consistently scoring a 45 raw score on Math. I am assuming that is good and it is more than 80%). Verbal has been 30, 33, 34 types. I have been doing better on RC and not so well on CR and SC. Not doing well on SC is surprising, as that was always a strong point for me in my earlier attempts. CR has been a sore point and I don't understand what to do about that.

Finally, I clearly have a problem with pacing. I am unable to pace effectively and strategically. And if I am stuck on a question that I don't think I am getting right, I have a problem moving on.

I am happy to do the work. But I need to know what the right work to do is. Can you PLEASE guide me? There has been a lot of patience and work that has gone in here and I don't want to give up. Can you help?

[StaceyKoprince]

It's important to make sure that you aren't over-testing. Most schools look unfavorably on an applicant who has taken the test more than three times. Your first three attempts have already fallen off of your record (the scores are good for 5 years) and your 4th attempt will fall off the record at the end of this year. I'm not sure when you're planning to apply to b-school; if this year, you may want to wait to submit your application until after December. (That also has the effect of showing your "first" score as 460 and your "second" score as 600 - and schools are generally impressed by big improvements.)

If you're going to do this, you need a consistent study program (the "more off than on" plan isn't going to work). Also, because you have been trying for so long on your own but haven't seen the kind of improvement you would like, you may benefit from taking a class or working with a tutor. I have an obvious conflict of interest in making that recommendation, so please take my suggestion with a grain of salt. I do feel, though, that your situation warrants the suggestion; what you've done so far hasn't worked for you, and you're going to need to do something significantly different the next time if you hope to see a big change. Finally, you haven't mentioned what you do want to score, but if you are looking for a 700 (which seems to be the magic number for many), you will likely need more than the time you appear to have planned (Aug is only 1 week away, or 5 weeks if we assume you meant end of Aug). To go from a 600 to a 700 is at least a 2-month journey, if not 3 or so.

It sounds like you have a decent handle on some of your weaknesses. The biggest one that jumps out at me is your pacing problem. You could learn how to do most of even the very hardest questions correctly... but if your pacing is bad, your score won't get better (maybe marginally, but not much). My guess is that you haven't done a ton to fix the pacing problem?

When you are practicing, you MUST hold yourself to the time - whether you're doing one problem, a set of problems, or an entire practice test. You can spend all the time you want afterward doing the problem again, doing it a different way, examining and analyzing it - in fact, I recommend you spend a significant amount of time doing those things. But, that first time, you MUST pick an answer by the deadline (1.5 min for SC, 2 min for everything else). You need to practice forcing yourself to come to some answer, somehow, within the given timeframe - then spend some time thinking about how you should have thought about getting to some answer in that timeframe while you were doing the question in the first place!

Learn how to make educated guesses (that is, learn how to spot and eliminate wrong answers) - this can be based not only on the broad question type but the sub-type or content area (eg, geometry vs. algebra, CR find an assumption vs. CR weaken, etc.).

Obviously, of course, make sure you know the math and grammar rules - but you already knew you need to know that stuff. :)

For CR and RC, don't forget to study why wrong answers are wrong - not just why the right answer is right. CR and RC rely heavily on POE (process of elimination) - it's just as important to know how to identify wrong answers.

[MG]

Thanks SO MUCH for your response and for the granules of guidance.

Yes, I want to score 710+... I am disappointed to know 45 on Quant is high 70s. I thought it was Late 80s. :(

I recently signed up for an online class that was based out of Bangalore. I am in Seattle. That class helped clarify concepts but hasnt done much to improve my score. Yes, I am conscious of the fact that I need to do something drastically different. I am open to taking a class again. But I think I need some customized help. DO you have any recommendations for folks in the Bellevue / Redmond / Seattle area? I am open to online if you think that might help. I need a plan of action and someone who can review my work and guide on next steps + someone I can be accountable to.

I must say I do feel confident about Quant a lot more than I do about verbal. And after reading your response, I am certain that my problem is not concepts as much as it is test taking tactics. I am pacing wrong and I need to change that. I need to be able to do it in the right amount of time and I need to be able to guess strategically. I agree with you.

Pray help!

[mdinerstein]

Hi MG,

If you are open to taking another course, I would highly recommend ManhattanGMAT's Live Online Prep Class. You'll be able to receive a great bottom-up review of various quant and verbal concepts tested on the exam. In your case, if you are confident in quant, you can spend more of your time focusing on the verbal concepts in the course in order to tailor your studies to your particular needs. In addition to receiving all of ManhattanGMAT's hard copy and online materials, taking the online class allows you to ask questions to your Instructors during your live class sessions. Furthermore, each week, you are provided with a 30-minute one-on-one session with a ManhattanGMAT Instructor over the phone.

I hope this helps with your decision. First, follow Stacey's recommendations. If you need further help after that, enrolling in a 9-Session Prep Course with ManhattanGMAT might be a good follow up to solidify your test-taking skills.

Best,

Michael Dinerstein
Marketing and Student Services Associate
michael@manhattangmat.com
800-576-4628
212-721-7400

[MG]

Hi Mike - thanks for your response. I am not sure another course will serve my purpose.

What I need is coaching around an action plan and concrete next steps at each point as I work through this critical stage of prep. I am convinced that another concept course is not what I need. There is something more needed that is missing. I am trying to nail what that something is.

Thoughts?

Stacey - your thoughts also please?

[StaceyKoprince]

If you need some one-on-one coaching, you can try private tutoring. This is a LOT more expensive than taking a course, though.

Most reputable tutoring programs will allow you to buy as few or as many hours as you need - don't do something where you're forced to pay a big sum of money up front for a large number of hours. (Note: if you DO want a large number of hours, then you can often get a discount by buying a whole package of hours up front. But make that choice only because you want to - don't do it because the company won't work with you otherwise!)

If you work with a tutor, I would expect the following things:

- you should have access to a bio or other information that will let you know the tutor's experience before you officially agree to the tutoring (in other words, you should be able to check the person out and decline to work with that tutor if you don't want to for any reason).

- you should have an email or phone conversation with the tutor before you officially meet for a paid tutoring session, and the tutor should give you some kind of work to do before the first meeting (I personally ask my new students to take an MGMAT practice test with 2 weeks of our first session; they then have to email me after they've taken it so I can go in and look at their results before we meet).

- your tutor should ask you enough questions to know your situation to a certain extent: how long have you been studying? what have you done so far? what do you think your strengths and weaknesses are? what is your goal score? when do you want to take the test? do you have any deadlines you have to meet? (these questions might come before the first session or at the first session - the point is, the tutor should be developing a strategy for your specific situation, not just applying a one-size-fits-all approach.)

- you and your tutor should set up a general game plan at the first meeting: what your goals are and the general plan for how to accomplish that, including what you'll do on your own, how often you'll meet, etc. this game plan then gets adjusted over time based on where you are and aren't improving.

We don't have any people in Seattle, but we do have online tutoring (it's live, via a web conferencing platform - so you can talk, chat, view and write on the same slides, etc.). As I mentioned, it's also pretty expensive - just want to warn you so you aren't totally shocked. You should also check out the offerings of any other companies you think might be good and see what you think would work best for you. Good luck - let us know how it goes!

[MG]

That is great advice on shopping for a private tutoring. Many thanks again.

The more I think about it, the more I feel I am very aware of what needs to be done. So now I just need to do it. But that is of course thanks to you - for eg I have done the OG so many times, but have rarely analysed why the right one is right, and have only focussed on the wrong one. So I think I am going to take another stab at the OG. My question to you is - shall I do OG 11 or OG 10? OG10 does have more questions although some of them have been repeated in OG 11. Please advice so I can kick off this leg of the prep journey (oh yes, what a journey it has been! Loving it! phew! :))

Look forward to your response.

[MG]

Hi Stacey - I just completed a GMAT Prep test. I tried doing the stop watch and had the best intentions to use it, but I just couldn't manage. Quant - I was way over on the time although towards the end I skipped through some of the answers. On the verbal, I feel I was better on the time management although I wasn;t using the stop watch. I tried the 13-18-41 approach (First 13 qs is 25 mins; 14 to 28 in 25 mins and 29 to 41 in 25 mins). I did struggle towards the end in verbal also, but it was not like it has been in previous attempts. I was left with two questions and time remianing was I minute and some seconds.

My score was 640 was 47 on Quant and 31 on Verbal. (damn that 31!)

Here is the part that doesn't make sense to me I got 15 incorrect in Q and 15 incorrect in verbal. How is it that my Quant score is 47 and Verbal score is 31. (Verbal Incorrect Break-up: 5 CR incorrect; 6 RC incorrect; 4 SC incorrect)

I think I need to go back to OG on verbal. I am basing this on your other posts. Please advice. Many thanks!

<upset but optimistic>

[GMAT85]

I have only 4 weeks left in the exam and I haven't crossed 600 yet. I got 590 in CAT 4. How can I raise my score from 590 to 700+ in 4 weeks? I remembered rushing on Verbal last time I took the official exam. So I have been focusing more on Verbal lately but it has brought down my Quant score alittle bit. I finished all the SC probs from OG guide but I still get about 5 SC ques. wrong each time I take a practice test. Currently, my verbal score is a 33. Do you think I can get a 36V if I manage to get a full score in SC? How can I improve my accuracy in SC? How many hours of studying should I be doing in order to reach my target score? I still have to take CAT 5 , 6 and GMAT prep exams. How should I spread out the practice exams in 4 weeks so that I can build up stamina and improve my scores at the same time? I have read other forums where you stressed on the analysis of OG probs. So these days I am focusing on OG probs and working on analyzing each ques that I practice (whether I get it right or wrong).

This will be my last GMAT exam because I want to start applying to B-schools in Sept-Oct. So, I want to do everything possible to achieve my goal in 4 weeks. Please advice! Thanks in advance!

[StaceyKoprince]

MG: OG10 and OG11 overlap by 75% - so quite a bit. But it can be worth it to go through OG10 because, first, 25% of the questions are new, and second, you're not going to remember ALL of the OG11 questions, so you'll also get some percentage that feel new to you even if they aren't!

Re: your practice test, that's not unusual. The primary scoring function is based on the difficulty level of the questions that you're answering, not the percentage correct. You were just answering easier verbal questions than quant, that's all. And, yes, it does sound like you need to go back to the source (OG) for verbal.

GMAT85: You're always going to get some questions wrong. If you aren't where you want to be in any one area yet, though, then you're not done with OG (because you haven't yet learned everything you needed to learn).

Yes, do spend a large amount of your study time analyzing. Generally, don't study more than 1.5 to 2 hours at a stretch (after that, your brain starts to get tired and doesn't encode everything into long-term memory as well). In a 2-hour timeframe, you might do a 20 or 25 question problem set and then spend the rest of the time reviewing those questions. You might focus on verbal today and math tomorrow, but don't focus on verbal for a week to the exclusion of math. Balance your time day-by-day (or maybe 2 days by 2 days).

At this point, I'd take an exam every 2 weeks and analyze those exam problems in the same way you're going to be analyzing the OG problems. Use the exam results to figure out what you need to improve from content, process, and timing perspectives and then go improve those things before you take another practice exam.

Just FYI - in general, I would say it is challenging to improve from a 590 to a 700 in 4 weeks. Some people do that, but most people take longer. I don't want to discourage you in any way; I just want you to know that you're going to need to be very smart about how you study - not how MUCH, but how effectively you study. Really think about what you need to learn, why you need to learn it, and how best to learn it (and, of course, use us here as a resource to help you figure those things out!).

[GMAT85]

Thanks for your advice Stacey! I don't have OG 10 book. Can I use Quantitative and Verbal Review books instead? I do 20 - 40 problems a day during weekdays and 70 - 90+ problems on weekends. The following day I try to review all the questions and do not move on to next problem set until I am done reviewing. Is this a good way of studying? I have reviewed all the MGMAT CATs once. Do you think it's essential to review them couple of more times or just stay focued on OG? Thanks again!

[StaceyKoprince]

It is definitely important to review your CATs thoroughly. You don't necessarily need to review every question multiple times, but you may want to mark certain questions for review. Perhaps the question tests something that you've been struggling with, so you want to go study whatever that is and then try the question again in a couple of weeks when you'll mostly have forgotten it. The question lists can be exported to Excel, so I'd recommend exporting them and then you can add your own comments. Note which ones you want to review at a later date so that you can easily find them again.

Yes, you can use Quant and Verbal instead of OG10 - the Quant and Verbal supplements don't have any overlap at all with OG11.

In terms of quantity of problems, I'll discuss this in terms of total time spent in a study session. In a 2-hour study session, you should aim to do about 20-25 problems under timed conditions, and then also review them.

[GMAT85]

Hi Stacey,
I took a GMATPREP exam today with essay and got 600 (48Q, 25V). So, I am not sure how accurate this score is because I had seen almost 7 Quant questions before. Also, in MGMAT CAT 4 I received 590 (39Q, 33V) with no essays. I felt so drained out by the time I got to the middle of Verbal, which I think affected my Verbal score. However, I am used to studying for long hours. I just have 16 days left in my exam. What should I focus more on? If I could just get 48Q and 33V, I can get a decent score. Should I spend less time on essays? Any advice?
Thanks for all your feedback, it's truly appreciated!