MORE AND GREATER confusion

[sw001]

Hello Ron,

Could you please help me with this -

I am having hard time understanding when to use more and when to use greater.

MGMAT SC Guide says we can use “more”, most, all enough for both countable and non-countable. And “greater” should be used for non-countable. But in MGMAT forum – I see “more” should ‘generally’ be used for Countable. What to follow - as a general rule in GMAT, should I use "more" for countable and "greater" for non countable.

The below sentences are similar to OG Verbal Review Q #82 (excerpt from #82 - Downzoning, zoning that typically results in the reduction of housing density) : -
“Patience” is non countable.
I have more patience than my sister. – this sounds right
I have greater patience than my sister. – this sounds wrong

Similar to OG 13 Q # 9 (In 1979 lack of rain reduced India's rice production to about 41 million tons):-
The cost of a pen is greater than that of a pencil.
The cost of a pen is more than that of a pencil.
Which sentence is correct/ incorrect? Reasons? Is it because Cost is "value".

A pen costs more than a pencil. (How can more be used here?)

The MGMAT guide states “greater” should be used for non-countable. But, it also says greater is used when comparing “numbers”.

The below examples are similar to OG Verbal Review, Q #70 (The gyrfalcon, an Arctic bird of prey)
The number of birds breeding in this season is more than the number last year. – sounds right
The number of birds breeding in this season is greater than the number last year. – sounds right
(Can more and greater both be used here, or is one preferred over another, why?)

There are more birds this season than the last season. – this sounds right.
There are greater birds this season than the last season. – bad.
Because birds are countable.

More number of birds is/are breeding this year. ??
Greater/ A greater number of birds is breeding this year. ??
Which one to use more/ greater??

Similar to OG Verbal Review, Q #70 (The gyrfalcon, an Arctic bird of prey)
The birds are in more numbers this year than last year.
The birds are in greater numbers this year than last year.
Which one? why?

Thank you!!

[sw001]

I would appreciate response from others as well.

[RonPurewal]

This kind of discussion MUST revolve around some example(s) from GMAT material.
The problem with discussing a topic this general—i.e., in a discussion divorced from any actual GMAT material—is that 90+% of everything will be irrelevant to the GMAT, which tests a very narrow band of English usage.

Please post, in the appropriate folder(s), at least one specific problem in which this issue has arisen.

Thanks.

[sw001]

Hello Ron,

I edited my post to include the examples where I have encountered similar issue. I am not sure if I can include OG problems, thus I have just referenced the number of those problems from OG.


Thanks

[RonPurewal]

"More" appears in #V82, but it's not a decision point; in fact, it's not underlined at all.

Neither "more" nor "greater" appears in #9. Wrong problem number?

[RonPurewal]

For the gyrfalcon, read this thread:
post17372.html#p17372

[sw001]

Hello Ron,

Thank you for directing me to the post. I have read that post before as well and it was very helpful. I read it again and it cleared few doubts.

Could you please confirm -

In general I observed that this rules applies -

1. If we are comparing a certain "value", "number", we use greater -
For example,
a. The cost of pen is greater than the cost of pencil. (we are comparing the specific costs)
b. The weight of our kitty is greater than the weight of their kitty. (I am confused with this one)
c. The number of birds breeding this year is greater than that of last year. (we are comparing specific numbers)

2. But if we are not referring to a specific value or number, then "more" is used -
c. The pen costs more than a pencil.
d. The weight of our kitty is more than theirs.
e. There are more number of birds breeding this year than last year. (although we have a number here, but since we are not comparing numbers directly, but just referring to birds as a group)
f. The number of cats we have is more than the cats they have. (we are not referring to the exact number)

And likewise, these should be correct -
The amount of water is greater than the amount of juice.
The clarity of water is greater than that of juice.
The fraction of the population who smoke is greater than those who do not [smoke].

Am I correct?

[RonPurewal]

a. The cost of pen is greater than the cost of pencil. (we are comparing the specific costs)

correct use of "greater".

you're missing "a" in front of the nouns. but that's a non-issue, since the gmat does not test "a"/"an"/"the".

b. The weight of our kitty is greater than the weight of their kitty. (I am confused with this one)

theoretically correct, although no decent writer would ever write this sentence (you'd see "Our cat is heavier than theirs" instead)

c. The number of birds breeding this year is greater than that of last year. (we are comparing specific numbers)

the use of "greater" is fine here.

"that of last year", on the other hand, creates non-parallelism, because there's nothing "of this year".

[RonPurewal]

c. The pen costs more than a pencil.

this is fine. (random observation: you have two examples labeled "c.")

d. The weight of our kitty is more than theirs.

non-parallel. "theirs" = "their cat", so this sentence literally says that a weight is more than a cat.

i don't think "more" is technically wrong here, but i'd bet lots of money that GMAC would never use it. (you'd see "greater" instead.)

e. There are more number of birds breeding this year than last year. (although we have a number here, but since we are not comparing numbers directly, but just referring to birds as a group)

redundant as written ("more" + "number").

correct if "more number of birds" is replaced with "more birds".

[RonPurewal]

f. The number of cats we have is more than the cats they have. (we are not referring to the exact number)

non-parallel. ("a number is more than some cats")

The amount of water is greater than the amount of juice.
The clarity of water is greater than that of juice.

these are fine.

[quote]The fraction of the population who smoke is greater than those who do not [smoke].

three big errors:
• "those" has no noun to stand for.
• even if such a noun were present, the sentence would still be non-parallel ("a fraction is greater than these people").
• idiomatically, "greater than" can never be followed by people/things, irrespective of parallelism. ("greater than ____" only works if "____" is a numerical quantity.)

[RonPurewal]

most importantly—
for this exam, learning to WRITE comparison sentences is a complete waste of your time.

don't forget that the problems are multiple-choice!
rather than learning to write these sentences from scratch, you can just compare the answer choices, "beauty contest" style.

needless to say, this is a hundred million zillion thousand times easier.
• to write these sentences correctly on a consistent basis, you need the equivalent of a professional writer's/editor's skill set.
• to judge "beauty contests" among answer choices, on the other hand, all you need is the simple ability to say "this looks more like X than that does".

it's bad to waste time and effort in the first place--but even worse when you're wasting it on a technique that is way, way harder AND doesn't work as well as what you should be doing.

[RonPurewal]

the problem in this link is a very good indication of whether you're thinking about these things properly:
can-somebody-help-me-out-with-this-question-t4278.html

• if you're trying to evaluate the choices individually, that problem is VERY hard.

• if you view it as a "beauty contest", it's actually quite easy. there's one answer choice that exactly resembles its non-underlined counterpart, and there are four answer choices that look nothing like it at all.

[sw001]

Hello Ron,

Thank you so much for your confirmations and your advice!

You are truly the BEST!!!

[RonPurewal]

Hello Ron,

Thank you so much for your confirmations and your advice!

You are truly the BEST!!!

you're welcome.

thanks for the note, too. frankly, i wish a few more posters—especially frequent posters—would do the same.
a little courtesy goes a long way in this big bad world of ours.