Is it bad to retake the GMAT too many times?

[samsung43]

disregard

[StaceyKoprince]

This is definitely the right folder for this question. :)

Most schools don't care about up to 3 attempts. Some schools care about more than 3 attempts. If you know where you're planning to apply, you can ask the admissions consultants whether they know how those particular schools deal with >3 attempts. (Not all schools have an official policy on this issue, so the reply may be "we don't know for sure.")

Also, if you don't improve your score, then you only have the lower score and that will hurt your chances more than having taken the test a few times. If you do improve your score, then most schools will be impressed that you actually accomplished the improvement, even if it took 3 tries.

The earlier questions are not worth more than the later questions - that's actually a myth. So, unfortunately, that's not going to do the trick for you.

You said that you have no problem finishing. Are you possibly going too far in the other direction - that is, working too quickly? Most people who are performing at their personal top level find the timing challenging, regardless of scoring level, so if you aren't finding the timing challenging at all, that leads me to believe that you may be working too quickly.

When you're reviewing problems you've done under timed conditions, how often do you find careless mistakes? Obviously, we all make careless mistakes sometimes, but are you finding a few or many? Lots of careless mistakes can also be an indication of too much speed. You can also look through your question lists from practice tests to see whether you're speeding through more at the beginning and the slowing down as you get to the end (when you realize you have plenty of time left).

Also, your purple color indicates that you are (or were) a course student. Did you already sign up for a free post-exam assessment? If not, contact the office (studentservices@manhattangmat.com or 800.576.GMAT) to sign up for the service. (It's a phone call with an instructor to debrief, figure out what went wrong, and come up with a game plan for a re-take.)

[sbi.manju]

Hello Stacey ,
While preparing for GMAT i used to read your replies to people queries and found them to be very genuine and helpful.
Now i need your advice and it's regarding taking GMAT for the fourth time
First three attempts -:
510 (Quant -: 46 Verbal -: 16)..September 2008
600 (Quant -: 46 Verbal -: 26)...July 2009
610 (Quant -: 46 Verbal -: 30)...September 2008

The reason for such a low verbal score in my first attempt was i wanted to make sure i complete the paper on time and was never able to concentrate, having said that i always felt that 600 in my first attempt would have been true reflection of my efforts.

Since after my first attempt i knew i have two problems first completing both Maths and Verbal section and accuracy in Verbal.

I had to really breeze through last 5 questions on Quant and almost last 9-10 questions on Verbal even in my practice tests and the same story got repeated in second attempt. I joined a coaching centre for the first time (Princeton Review) and next two attempts were after self teaching.
I am still at the same stage as far as completing the paper is concerned in both sections.

To be honest i prepared with same style every time and focused only on SC to improve my score,have not been able to address weak area in Maths and other areas.I am at the same level where i was after my first attempt as always focused to improve on English.

Now the issue is i am going ahead with my application with this score and obviously schools i am targeting are as per my score which i am not happy with and no aid too.I know fourth attempt would be very risky but will give it only if i cross 700 in my Practice tests (Kaplan).I want to target schools inthe range of 30-50 (US ).

So should i go ahead with Fourth time after joining a coaching centre and taking all possible help and working hard as much as possible , but before that should i ask B' Schools which i intent to apply with my fourth attempt
how do they look at a person with fourth attempt, even if i get 700.

I need your advice on this.

[sbi.manju]

Hello Stacey ,
While preparing for GMAT i used to read your replies to people queries and found them to be very genuine and helpful.
Now i need your advice and it's regarding taking GMAT for the fourth time
First three attempts -:
510 (Quant -: 46 Verbal -: 16)..September 2008
600 (Quant -: 46 Verbal -: 26)...July 2009
610 (Quant -: 44 Verbal -: 30)...September 2009

The reason for such a low verbal score in my first attempt was i wanted to make sure i complete the paper on time and was never able to concentrate, having said that i always felt that 600 in my first attempt would have been true reflection of my efforts.

Since after my first attempt i knew i have two problems first completing both Maths and Verbal section and accuracy in Verbal.

I had to really breeze through last 5 questions on Quant and almost last 9-10 questions on Verbal even in my practice tests and the same story got repeated in second attempt. I joined a coaching centre for the first time (Princeton Review) and next two attempts were after self teaching.
I am still at the same stage as far as completing the paper is concerned in both sections.

To be honest i prepared with same style every time and focused only on SC to improve my score,have not been able to address weak area in Maths and other areas.I am at the same level where i was after my first attempt as always focused to improve on English.

Now the issue is i am going ahead with my application with this score and obviously schools i am targeting are as per my score which i am not happy with and no aid too.I know fourth attempt would be very risky but will give it only if i cross 700 in my Practice tests (Kaplan).I want to target schools inthe range of 30-50 (US ).

So should i go ahead with Fourth time after joining a coaching centre and taking all possible help and working hard as much as possible , but before that should i ask B' Schools which i intent to apply with my fourth attempt
how do they look at a person with fourth attempt, even if i get 700.

I need your advice on this.

[StaceyKoprince]

I know you're not yet where you want to be, but you've shown very nice improvement so far - nice job. The first thing to do is research: what are the average incoming GMAT scores for the students admitted to the schools to which you would like to apply? Check the average incoming GPAs as well.

Ideally, you want to be at or above the average for any particular school in order to give yourself a competitive shot at that school. If you are looking in the 30-50 range, you may find that you already have what you need or are closer than you think. The 700 range is typically for top 10 or top 20 schools. So start researching to see what you really need.

You can also ask the schools how they would feel about a 4th attempt. Explain that you have already improved 100 points since your first attempt (it's important that they know your work so far has already been successful).

I'm not 100% sure but it sounded like you were saying you still are having the same timing problems you had the first time. Is that the case? If so, if you do not fix the timing problem, you will not get a 700 on this test. You've got to fix that problem.

This does not mean, however, miraculously being able to answer everything on the test within the expected timeframe. No matter how good you get, you are still going to have to guess on this test - everybody has to. Most people have to guess on between 4 and 7 questions in each section (and not: I narrowed it down to 2 and need to make a 50-50 guess - no, more like I have no idea or maybe I eliminated one or two answers but I'm guessing randomly after that).

I'm sure you noticed that, even though your score is getting better, you're still rushing on lots of questions at the end. That's because you're still going to have to make guesses, no matter how good you get.

So - what to do? Well, you can't avoid making the guesses. But you can choose when and how to make the guesses. You don't want the test to force you to guess on a bunch of questions in a row, because some of the largest penalties are reserved for strings of wrong answers in a row. Also, in any string of questions, you should be able to answer some of them correctly, just based upon how the test works. So, instead, you want to choose the hardest questions as you see them throughout the section. Stop spending 3, 4, 5 minutes on one question. When you hit a question like that, make a guess and move on. That 4 minutes you wasted on one (really hard) question (that you probably got wrong anyway) could be used to do 2 questions later in the test!

There is ALWAYS a trade-off. If you're already struggling with a question it is NEVER a good trade-off to keep working on it. If it's that hard, you probably aren't going to get it right even with the extra time, and you're also costing yourself another question (or more than one!) later in the test. Not a good trade-off.

If you don't make yourself believe and follow this, it's going to be nearly impossible for you to get that 700.

[sbi.manju]

Hello Stacey ,

I think i should have contacted you after my second attempt..:o)

Let me explain you the blunder i have to do on every English test because i am left with no time and you can than guide me on this.
Fourth or last RC on the paper always pure guess , i even don't have time to read so i guess on a particular answer choice in a row, which as i think you explained carry a strong penalty.

So 31 to 41 questions have a particular option as answer choice in 70 % cases as i feel this is better going by probability rule and questions in the end don't carry weight so get max right.

In Maths 32 -37 again random guessing , the same blunder as explained above.

I am targetting 48 (Maths) and 35 (English) and i believe if i can attempt (true) the whole paper , i mean both sections than i can achieve around 700.

Now i want to do it but don't how and can u suggest a way to atttempt each sections so that i can say i have atleast attempted the whole paper
and than see the change in the score.I have tried several tricks in my book but have not been able to give a genuine attempt to the paper.

To answer your Question yes my biggest problem is the Timing issue and
suggest some ways to overcome it by what stratergy should i apply while tackling each section.

Thanks

[StaceyKoprince]

Start by going back and re-reading my last post. :)

You will not get to the point where you can attempt every single question to the best of your ability. The test will ALWAYS give you something harder than you can do, no matter how good you get. You will ALWAYS have to guess on some questions (for most people, 4 to 7 questions per section), no matter how good you get. Your only choice is: on which questions will I guess? And how will I make those guesses?

Right now, you aren't choosing - so you're being forced to guess on the questions at the end. You need to shift your guessing. Pick the hardest questions as you see them throughout the section - guess on those instead.

I think you would also benefit from a timing exercise: learning about how long one minute is without looking at a watch or stopwatch. If you don't have one already, buy yourself a stopwatch with lap timing capability. When you go to do a set of problems, start the stopwatch but turn it over so you can't see the time. Every time you think one minute has gone by, push the lap button. When you're done, see how good you were - and whether you tend to over or underestimate. Get yourself to the point where you're within 15 seconds either way on a regular basis (that is, you can generally predict between 45 sec and 1min 15 sec).

Now, how do you use that when doing problems? If you're not on track by one minute*, make an educated guess and move on. (The general idea is that if you're not on track by the halfway mark, you're unlikely to figure out what's holding you back AND have time to do the whole problem in the 1 min you have left.)

* NOTE: For SC, 1min is well beyond the half-way mark (we're supposed to average about 1m15s here), but you can almost always eliminate at least some choices on SC in that timeframe. Once you've got that "I'm around the 1min mark and I'm struggling" feeling, go through any remaining choices ONCE more. Pick one. Move on.

So 31 to 41 questions have a particular option as answer choice in 70 % cases as i feel this is better going by probability rule and questions in the end don't carry weight so get max right.

I don't understand what you're trying to explain here; can you explain again? It sounds like at least one thing you're saying is that the last questions don't carry as much weight on the test. That's not true - that's a myth. The last questions carry just as much weight as any other questions on the test. Perhaps you already know that - as I said, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.

[jigar24]

Hi Stacey,

I understood from your replies that upto 3 attempts at GMAT are generally considered safe. However, what about cancellations? If I feel my test didn't go well, and if I chose to cancel my score, then would that cancelled test be considered as an attempt?

One more thing,

I got 570 on my first attempt in Nov, 08 (just 15 days of prep, wrong study material ..)

I have been preparing from ManGMAT books and OG since past couple of months. My mock scores (in 9 mocks) have been in the range of 640-710 (just one 700+ score)..

I want to apply at the top 5 schools in the states and so am aiming for a 700 plus score. However, considering my performance in mocks I am a bit skeptical about taking a second attempt now (I have my exam within 5 days). Since I won't get any refund now, do you think it's a good ploy to take the exam just to get more used to real test pressure and then cancel my score (before it's flashed on the screen)? Does this count as an attempt as it will be mentioned on my report card...?

Or do you think I should just cancel my test before hand without appearing at the centre?

Please drop in a line ASAP.. sorry to rush you into it

Thanks!

Jigar

[StaceyKoprince]

Luckily, I got to your post quickly! FYI for future: it can take 3 to 7 days to get a reply, so if you have a last-minute, urgent question, it's always better to contact your teacher or the office directly.

If you take the test but cancel during or at the end of the test, then that will show up as a "cancelled test" on your transcript - so the schools will see that you showed up at the test center but cancelled your test at some point during the day.

In terms of whether the schools will include that in a count of "up to 3 tests" - that really depends upon the school. They can choose to interpret that piece of info in any way that they want.

If you have been taking the tests under official test conditions (essays, two 8-minute breaks, no use of the pause button, tests taken all in one sitting, no repeated questions or no advantage gained from repeated questions, etc), then you should expect to score in the same general range on the real test that you have been scoring on practice tests. You mention 9 test scores but you don't mention when you took those - and, in any event, I will assume you haven't taken 9 tests in the last 9 days. The most relevant scores will be those from the last couple of weeks - what have those been?

In general, if you don't feel that you are prepared to get your goal score, then I would not recommend taking the test, even if you have to forfeit the fee you paid. You might as well not have a score cancellation on your report, just in case. (And if you do show up to the test center, then you will not be allowed to take the test again for 31 days after the test date - what if you want to take it 2 weeks from now? You won't be able to do so.)

[jigar24]

Hi Stacey,

Thanks a million for your prompt reply.. I fully understand that it generally takes longer for you (or any prof.) to reply.. But really appreciate your prompt inputs..

I have taken the 9 mock tests within the past 15 days.. I know that my strategy was slightly flawed and that it's usually better to not write more than 2-3 a week (that way you get more time to learn from your mistakes) .. The 710 score (only 700+score) was on "800socre" test which I find generally tougher than ManGMAT ones..

Maths 44 (not representative of my ability)
Verbal 40

My Maths is way stronger than my verbal.. my maths scores have been in the range of 46-48 on consistent basis.. though I have to guess 3-4 questions on average as I run out of time all the time (since I am in the higher range, most of the questions I get are 700+ and some of them have been really gruelling and time consuming).. so I am left with no choice but to skip them entirely..

My verbal scores have been very very inconsistent.. I have practiced through OG 12, Verbal Review, ManGMAT (hard copy as well as online question banks) and managed a 80% accuracy throughout.. Although I did not time myself while practicing through these books and may well have gone beyond stipulated 2 mins/per question (RC and CR).. SCs I have been able to solve under 1.5 mins..

The point I am trying to make re. verbal is that although my scores have been in the range of 30-33 in the mocks, they don't represent my true ability.. It's not that I am incapable of finding the right answer, but usually the tough maths section drains away most of my brain power and focus and leaves me with very little during the verbal.. However that situation too has improved in the past couple of mocks and I have been more relaxed during verbal.. but that didn't change my scores..

hence I am a little worried as to whether I take this Friday's test or no.. I checked with HBS adcom and this is what they had two say re. 3 attempts (in red):

The Admissions Board acknowledges and reviews only GMAT or the GRE scores submitted in the online application. The Board will not accept or review other GMAT or GRE scores. Candidates must submit GMAT or GRE scores taken from one test date only. Applications without GMAT or GRE scores are not accepted or reviewed under any circumstances.

This clearly suggests that they don't care much about the # of attempts at GMAT..


I am going to take one final GMATprep mock today and see how I fair .. If I do well then probably I'll take the test on Friday (worst case scenario, I will cancel the test scores if I feel it didn't go well).. or else will cancel the test altogether without going to the test-centre.. Will keep you posted..

Once again thank you very very much for your prompt reply.. I would really appreciate if you could spare 5 mins to check this space in the coming 1-2 days..

Thanks a lot!!

[jigar24]

I think I missed a couple of your questions:

I have not been writing essays in any of the mocks.. and I abide by the timer and have not used the pause button (except on one test, not on the one I got 710)

In the last 3 mocks:

MCAT2 - 670 [M48 V33]
MCAT3 - 620 [M43 V32] (I found this exam really tough)
GMAT Prep - 640 [M48 V31] (messed up verbal yet again)

I will let you know how I do on this final GMATprep today.. you will be able to guide me better on that performance

Thanks,
Jigar

[jigar24]

Hi,

I took GMATprep... I scored 640.

Maths - 45 (made some genuine errors..)
Verbal - 34 (this is the highest score in GMAT perp.. earlier I had got 27, 29, 31)..

I am still not able to make up mind regarding the test on Friday.. Lets see how the next two days go.. though I am not planning to take any more tests ..

[StaceyKoprince]

I have to guess 3-4 questions on average as I run out of time all the time (since I am in the higher range, most of the questions I get are 700+ and some of them have been really gruelling and time consuming).. so I am left with no choice but to skip them entirely..

This happens for everybody, regardless of your scoring level or how much you study. You can't avoid having to make some guesses. All you can do is choose when (on which questions) you want to guess. You never want to guess on 3-4 questions in a row because, out of any 3-4 questions in a row, some of those questions are ones you can do. Therefore, you want to choose the hardest 3-4 questions as you see them throughout the test. Make your guesses on those, not the last 3-4 in a row.

Although I did not time myself while practicing through these books and may well have gone beyond stipulated 2 mins/per question (RC and CR)

If that's actually the case, then your percentage correct doesn't matter. The test is not merely asking how many you can get right; it's asking how many you can get right in the very limited time available. That's a completely different question. As noted above for quant, you're going to have to guess sometimes, so choose the hardest ones as you find them. (Most people have to guess on 4-7 per section unless their score is at the higher end, when it might drop to 3 or 4.)

usually the tough maths section drains away most of my brain power and focus and leaves me with very little during the verbal

This may get a bit better if you use the strategy I described above - when you see the hardest quant questions, let them go. (It doesn't hurt your score to get the hardest ones wrong - but it does hurt your score if you get a few wrong in a row at the end because you ran out of time and had to make random guesses.)

I have not been writing essays in any of the mocks

This, however, is the bigger issue with why you get tired our during the verbal. You've only prepared yourself fora 2.5 hour test. The test is actually 3.5 hours, and that last hour (for which you're not prepared) is all verbal!

There's not a lot you can do now, 2 days before the test, to develop this mental stamina. If you postpone or take the test again in future, make sure to do the essays every time. I know you don't really care about the essay score, but you do care about the verbal score - and that can be negatively affected if you haven't been practicing with the essays!

If most of your recent tests have been around the 650 range, then that's what you should expect on the real test - and possibly a little bit lower, because you haven't been doing the essays (skipping the essays can inflate your score sometimes). If you really want a 700+, then you may want to postpone this test date until your practice test scores (with the essays, under all official timing conditions) are in the 700 range.

[jigar24]

Hi Stacey, Sorry for a delayed response.. I took the test and a got 570 yet again (M44 V25).. Before the test, going by your advise I had intended to cancel the test, but for some reason I felt like taking it and try my luck (of course an EXTREMELY stupid call!).. I am feeling so disheartened..

The test went well early on, I think I did well on the essays and had a lot of points to make (still awaiting scores).. My first 15 questions in Maths were absolutely right and I solved them in about 21 minutes..hence I got very pumped.. but then came the devil.. I got a cone/frustum data sufficiency question (=p) which completely took me by surprise.. I thought I had some extra time to spend as I had a solved the earlier questions relatively fast.. hence I spent to around 5-7 minutes on that question (which probably cost me the test!).. I may have got that frustum question right but it was followed by a cluster of tough data sufficiency questions.. (data sufficiency always scares me as i invariably miss out some key points).. now this cluster of questions dented my confidence.. I suddenly went into a defensive and took on average 2.5-3 minutes to solve the rest of the questions.. the test got more and more difficult and I got more and more slow, lagging behind with every question.. It came to a point where I had to anser 10 questions in 15 minutes.. though I managed to answer 7-8 very quickly, I was left with last 5-6 questions in 4-5 minutes.. My mind got jolted and I just became blank.. I tried solving a couple of questions but could not think clearly.. finally I had to guess all the last 6 questions (almost blindly).. and you know what happened next.. However, one thing to note, while I was guessing these last bunch of questions, my following questions came out to be tougher.. for example my second last question was a crazy probability question (it could have been an experimental question).. hence, I thought even though I am guessing, I seem to ticking the right answers.. felt that my scores still would be in the range of 46-48.. of course, a bad judgement.. real exam pressure can make a fool out of anyone!!

Then came Verbal, which went relatively fine.. I took your advice to really dig it out and guess on the questions which I felt I wouldn't able to solve under 2 minutes (CR and RC).. I was doing fine and I did not need to guess on more than 2-3 questions .. However, on my last RC (long RC), I was not very confident and felt that I may have got a cluster of answers wrong.. In spite of that my overall confidence level in Verbal was high and it still felt like a '34' performance.. although that judgement too was a wrong one and I managed a mere 25..

Overall, before going through with the scores, I felt that I managed around 660-670 mark.. which wouldn't be bad progress from score of 570 (1st attempt) .. also I had been getting such scores on consistent basis the last 8-9 mocks and this test did NOTfeel much different from the mocks I had been taking.. SO i decided to go ahead with the scores .. but it was not to be.. my judgement was really bad..

Anyways what's done is done.. I know it may reflect badly on my application but there is not much I can do about what's done.. I still feel that I am definitely capable of getting a 700+ score and if I manage that in my third attempt I would still be able to manage to defend my earlier scores (to some extent at least).. I need your help now Stacey, with my study strategy.. I will be resuming work soon and will have to study along with work.. I want to apply in first second rounds in 2010 (for batch entering fall 2011).. Please guide me on how I should go about studies..I am weak at verbal mainly.. and I will have to completely restructure my approach.. In maths I often miss out small points in data sufficiency questions.. I struggle with mainly inequality & modulus and average-median DS questions.. Please guide me on how I can attack these issues.. Also, since I am fresh with my concepts, do you think it makes sense to take the test again in 2-3 months of prep (of course, provided I get 700+ scores in mocks consistently and write essays as well)..

Please let me know your thoughts, at your convenience ..

Thanks a lot for all your help..

Jigar

[jigar24]

Hey, and one more thing.. on my test unofficial score report, the date of test is mentioned incorrectly.. they have printed 26th Nov instead of 27th Nov.. do you think there is a slight possibility of some calculating error or some software glitch in calculation my scores too? lol.... I still am in a complete state of shock with the results.. It just din't feel like a 570.. worst case 640-650.. It did not feel any different from the last GMAT prep I took (along with essays) where I managed a 640..(M45 V34).. Is there any way I can get my scores rechecked or something? I know I am expecting something out of thin air.. but just making sure I din't miss out on an opportunity.. besides if GMAAC algorithm/software is so accurate, then it couldn't have mentioned the wrong date, could it?