Idiom - So X as To be Y

[gs.abhinav]

Hi,

From various sources including instructors on this forum (See:http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/climatic-shifts-are-so-gradual-as-to-be-indistinguishable-at-t3570.html), I have gathered that the following idiomatic usage is correct -

So X [adjective] as to Y

For example: The soil erosion was so gradual as to be destructive for the nearby forest land.

Can someone explain if the following (related) usage is also idiomatic -

So X [adjective] that Y

For example: Hosani Mobarak was so despised that he was overthrown from his regime by his own people.

Thanks for your help.

[Milanproda1]

I may be wrong, but I believe the usage of "that" cannot refer to people:

MGMAT SC guide:page 87
According to the GMAT, clauses led by the pronoun [i]that[i] cannot modify people.

Example:

Wrong-The scientists THAT made the discovery were rewarded.
Correct: The scientists WHO made the discovery were rewarded.

[messi10]

Hi Abhinav,

I think it is correct. In spoken English, we often omit "that" when used with "so" but it is still there:

I was so tired (that) I could barely stay awake.

Milanproda, you are correct that "that" cannot modify people. But Abhinav's example was not actually modifying Hosni Mubarak. "that" was used to show a result of him being despised.

Regards

Sunil

[gs.abhinav]

Hi Milanproda, you are absolutely correct in your assessment. The pronoun that cannot modify people, only relative pronouns can. But in my example, as Sunil has correctly pointed out, the pronoun 'that' is not modifying the dictator but is showing the result of the people's hatred for him.

If I am not mistaken, "that" here is used here as an adverb to modify the verb/adjective "hated".

For ex. "The GMAT is not that difficult that we can't score an 800". The opposite of this would be "The GMAT is so difficult that we can't score an 800". but a 780 ought to do :)

Sunil, hope you are in good shape. Thanks again for your help. My question particularly was about the idiom "So X as to be Y". Your examples differs slightly from this.

For example, are both the following two sentences good or is 1 better than 2?

Among the Navi, the destruction of nature was so taboo that it was forbidden to them on the pain of death.

Among the Navi, the destruction of nature was so taboo as to be forbidden to them on the pain of death.


thanks

[Willy]

Hi Milanproda, you are absolutely correct in your assessment. The pronoun that cannot modify people, only relative pronouns can. But in my example, as Sunil has correctly pointed out, the pronoun 'that' is not modifying the dictator but is showing the result of the people's hatred for him.

If I am not mistaken, "that" here is used here as an adverb to modify the verb/adjective "hated".

For ex. "The GMAT is not that difficult that we can't score an 800". The opposite of this would be "The GMAT is so difficult that we can't score an 800". but a 780 ought to do :)

Sunil, hope you are in good shape. Thanks again for your help. My question particularly was about the idiom "So X as to be Y". Your examples differs slightly from this.

For example, are both the following two sentences good or is 1 better than 2?

Among the Navi, the destruction of nature was so taboo that it was forbidden to them on the pain of death.

Among the Navi, the destruction of nature was so taboo as to be forbidden to them on the pain of death.


thanks

I have highlighted in Blue the part, which I think is not correct. Relative pronoun "relates" a subordinate clause to the rest of the sentence. Relative pronouns in english are Who, That, Whom, Which and Whose. Of the 5 above written relative pronouns only Who and Whom can refer to people not all the relative pronouns.

There is controversies that That and Whose can refer to people, things, qualities, and ideas so this is not correct on GMAT.

MGMAT SC book explains this in better way.

[gs.abhinav]

Hi Will

Sorry my bad..you are absolutely correct..I meant to put it the same way as you did. Use only "who", "whom", "whose" to refer to people. "where" for places and "in which" for abstract ideas/places.

There is controversies that That and Whose can refer to people, things, qualities, and ideas so this is not correct on GMAT.

I think "whose" and "whom" can refer to people.

"whose" is a relative pronoun. For example:

Q: Whose idea was it to cross the bridge?
A: It was Will's idea.

"whom" is an object pronoun. For example:
Q: Whom are you going to invite to the party?
A: I am going to invite Will.

or

While strolling through the garden, we ran into Jack Nicholson, whom we had seen in the movie a while before.

[smohit04]

Thats correct... whose refers to all nouns including people and animals but who can refer only to people.

[Willy]

Hi Will

Sorry my bad..you are absolutely correct..I meant to put it the same way as you did. Use only "who", "whom", "whose" to refer to people. "where" for places and "in which" for abstract ideas/places.

There is controversies that That and Whose can refer to people, things, qualities, and ideas so this is not correct on GMAT.

I think "whose" and "whom" can refer to people.

"whose" is a relative pronoun. For example:

Q: Whose idea was it to cross the bridge?
A: It was Will's idea.

"whom" is an object pronoun. For example:
Q: Whom are you going to invite to the party?
A: I am going to invite Will.

or

While strolling through the garden, we ran into Jack Nicholson, whom we had seen in the movie a while before.

Thanks, it helped.

[jnelson0612]

Great discussion!