Help: Is it worth writing GMAT 3rd time

[senthil.chinnaraj]

Hi Ron/Stacey,

I need your guidance in writing GMAT again. I have already written GMAT twice.

First Attempt: Feb 2011
Quant: 49
Verbal: 27
Overall:640

Second Attempt:Jun 2011
Quant:49
Verbal:30
Overall:660

I am not quite sure what really went wrong, When i solve OG questions i see the issues tested in the problem and i get it correct. But on testday, especially in verbal section i face problem. I just couldn't get the issue being tested. I have problem with sentence correction. Before writting the GMAT 2nd time i thought i have improved in this area. But i think i haven't improved at all. I dedicated whole time to Verbal-SC. I harldy prepared anything for math, Still i didnot improve my verbal score.

As i have already given the GMAT twice i am not sure how B-Schools are going to look at my score if i write the GMAT once again. I am not sure whether i can improve my verbal score. So far i am just a manhattan CAT student. If i enroll for a course will it help me? or is it time to say good bye to my MBA dreams? Please share your thoughts.

Thanks,
Senthil.

Following is my Mock CAT scores:
Manhattan
Test Quant Verbal Overall
Before 1st attempt
1 47 36 680
2 47 30 630
3 44 31 610
4 42 32 600
5 47 32 650
6 44 32 630

Before 2nd attempt(Reset question pool and written the test again)
Test Quant Verbal Overall
1 47 40 710
2 49 41 730
3 45 32 630
4 48 42 730
5 42 28 510
6 49 36 700

800 score tests

Test Quant Verbal Overall
2 45 31
3 48 35
4 49 37
5 45 39

[StaceyKoprince]

I think it's really important for you to pose your question to some admissions consultants - our expertise is the test itself, not what the schools will think about your results.

Do you know where you want to apply? The admissions consultants will likely want to know more about your profile and where you want to apply in order to address your question. There's a folder here on the forums called Ask An Admissions Consultant, so go and post there too.

Now, I'll tell you what I think (but note that I am NOT an admissions consultant!). Most schools don't care about someone having up to 3 scores. Some schools care after that. If you can show an improvement on subsequent tests, then the schools are going to like that; if you can't, then it can look negative (because you keep taking it but you don't improve).

You did improve a little bit on your 2nd test - you picked up 3 sub-score points and 20 points overall - so that's good. The score is moving in the right direction; I'm happy about that (and you should be too!).

You mention that you really struggle with the verbal on the real test, not on practice tests or practice questions. Could stamina be part of the problem? When you take practice tests, do you take them under 100% official conditions, including the essays and length of breaks? If not, then you may not be prepared for the length of the test, and the verbal section comes last, so that's where it would hurt you the most.

It's also possible that the way in which you're studying is making it harder for you to recognize what's going on when you get to the real test. It's sort of the difference between studying individual problems as "stand-alone" problems, and studying problems from the point of view of "how else could this appear?" or "what are the clues that tell me this problem is this type or is testing this concept?" People often find that easier to do in their area of strength (quant for you), but struggle to do this in their weaker area.

If I were to show you the 5 answers to an SC problem but NOT let you read the original sentence, would you still be able to tell me what issues are being tested? This is one of the things that you want to be able to do.

Also, do you feel as though you struggle more with questions that have very long underlines, big parts of sentences moving around or changing, basically SCs that don't have as many very obvious single-word differences in the answers?

Those kinds of problems often involve modifiers and issues related to modifiers (such as parallelism and comparisons). Those are also becoming more common on the test.

Take a look at the below two articles - do these look more like the kinds of problems that gave you trouble?
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2011/03/ ... sc-problem
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2011/03/ ... -problem-2

Did you also feel that you were having trouble with RC and CR, or was it mostly SC? Let me know.

In terms of whether you could use outside help in the form of a class or tutor... sure, most people can probably improve using the help of an expert. It's expensive, of course, so you'll have to figure out what kind of cost is acceptable to you and so on.

If you're really looking for help only on one narrow thing (such as one question type, SC), then it might actually be more worth your time to do some tutoring. That's more expensive, but you can do between 5 and 8 hours of tutoring for the same price as a course (depending on what kind of course you would have picked), and if you ONLY want to do SC, then you can actually go deeper into the material working one on one with an instructor. (In the course, we probably spend about 8 to 9 hours on SC, but that's with a big group of people. If you're working one-on-one with an instructor, you can go faster on your stronger areas and slower on your weaker areas, and you're the only one asking questions.

[senthil.chinnaraj]

Hi Stacey,

Thanks a lot for detailed reply.

Do you know where you want to apply? The admissions consultants will likely want to know more about your profile and where you want to apply in order to address your questio

I want to go for one of the top 20 b-schools. I checked my list of bschool average gmat score it is around 700. I have 6 years of experience with Information Technology. My graduation percentage is 74%. I want to have a good GMAT score, so that it will add value to my profile. I am not sure how bschool with average gmat score 700 is going to look at the applicant with 660 score. I prefer to improve the score and then apply(if i can hit 760). I will post the query to Admissions Consultant as well.

You did improve a little bit on your 2nd test - you picked up 3 sub-score points and 20 points overall - so that's good. The score is moving in the right direction; I'm happy about that (and you should be too!)

Thanks.. If i look at my practice tests, almost all the scores are above my official gmat scores. Before taking the exam second time i thought i was improving in verbal. If you look at my 800 score practice test verbal scores, i was improving test to test.(30,31,35,37,39). I thought that i would get atleast 35 in verbal, it would have pushed my overall score to 700+.

You mention that you really struggle with the verbal on the real test, not on practice tests or practice questions. Could stamina be part of the problem? When you take practice tests, do you take them under 100% official conditions, including the essays and length of breaks? If not, then you may not be prepared for the length of the test, and the verbal section comes last, so that's where it would hurt you the most.

I am also thinking the same(stamina issue). This thought come into my mind after i read your article in beatthegmat forum. I did not take all my practice tests on 100% official conditions. Few practice tests i skipped the essay part. When i gave my Manh gmat tests second time, because i didn't like answering the same essay question again. The gap between quant and verbal section is more than 8 mins. Both the times when taking official GMAT tests, i felt i wasn't applying the basic strategy whatever i had for each question type, For example in SC question if i didn't get the error message at first time i read the question then i will systematically look for each type of error. At a times i was just staring at question instead trying alternative strategy to attack the question. I think i couldn't relate each question with the question i already solved. When i am not 100% about the answer, my confidence goes down. After attending initial 5/10 questions in verbal scetion i felt i am not doing great.

I have almost exhausted all my practice tests. could you please tell me how to test my real improvement in my future preparation?

It's also possible that the way in which you're studying is making it harder for you to recognize what's going on when you get to the real test. It's sort of the difference between studying individual problems as "stand-alone" problems, and studying problems from the point of view of "how else could this appear?" or "what are the clues that tell me this problem is this type or is testing this concept?" People often find that easier to do in their area of strength (quant for you), but struggle to do this in their weaker area.

In between Feb-Jun, I was only concentrating on SC. i didn't do much on any other question type. I really find it difficult to figure out the concept which is tested in SC. In quant i am not very confident about solving DS question, 60-70% mistake in quant is with DS. Especially testing sufficiency with both the statements together and questions where i need to pick up the numbers to test the sufficiency.

If I were to show you the 5 answers to an SC problem but NOT let you read the original sentence, would you still be able to tell me what issues are being tested? This is one of the things that you want to be able to do.

Also, do you feel as though you struggle more with questions that have very long underlines, big parts of sentences moving around or changing, basically SCs that don't have as many very obvious single-word differences in the answers?

I haven't tried finding out the answer without looking at the question. But i tried finding out error in each answer choices. I solved OG 10 SC questions in this way. I will read the question then go to every answer choice to find out the errors in it. This way of studying is very time consuming.

Yes.. I don't like very long sentences especially the ones in which whole sentence is underlined. Some times i felt difficulty in making out the sentence structure.

I find it difficult to spot the parallelism with clauses. I find it difficult to spot the verb modifiers. I am good at finding noun modifiers or opening modifier. But i didn't see any questions with opening modifier on test day.

Take a look at the below two articles - do these look more like the kinds of problems that gave you trouble?
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2011/03/ ... sc-problem
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2011/03/ ... -problem-2

Yes.. i don't like solving these kind SC questions.

Did you also feel that you were having trouble with RC and CR, or was it mostly SC? Let me know.

CR is my strength. My accuracy is 80%. CR is not a big problem. Most of my errors in CR would be not reading the questions properly such as missing the EXCEPT or not reading the answer choices properly. I don't do very serious mistakes. Only one type of question(Bold face) is little worry, but if i spend little extra time i am getting it right. I couldn't use this to my advantage. I tried solving CR questions with in one and half minutes but my accuracy went down, so quit that plan.

RC, i can't say for sure. Basically i am a slow reader, so i can't finish reading with in 2-3 minutes. It takes me more than 4 minutes to get complete understanding of the passage. sometime reading takes up to six and half minutes. Answering the questions correct depends on the passage. Sometimes i get all of them questions correct, sometimes i get it all of them wrong. I don't like reading art, literature passages.

The third attempt would be my last attempt. If i didn't cross 700(looking to hit the 99 percentile), probably i won't be doing my MBA. I am looking to do my MBA with one of the top institutes. So i wanted to do whatever i can to get the score. Certainly i need help in SC. Is it possible to directly write to you?. It will be very helpful to me to find out what needs to be done to get the score.

Manhattan Gmat forum and Thursdays with Ron sessions are very helpful. Thanks a lot to you and Ron for helping numerous GMAT aspirants.

[StaceyKoprince]

Ok - on the tests where you skipped your essays, your multiple-choice score might've been inflated. So it's possible that your verbal score "drop" didn't actually represent as much of a drop as you thought - just FYI.

When i am not 100% about the answer, my confidence goes down.

Okay, so part of this is going to involve changing your mindset. You should expect that you will NOT always be 100% sure about your answer. Nobody is - that's just how the test works.

Think of this as a tennis match, not a test. You're going to win some points and the other guy is going to win some points; you're not going to win them all, right? Your goal is to put yourself into position to win the LAST point. Translated, that means you have to put yourself in position to answer the last question - you have to have time to address it. Otherwise, you've lost the last point, and by extension the match. When the other guy hits a winner, don't go running after it so fast that you hit the fence and injure yourself, thereby hurting your chances on the later points. (Translation: don't go way over when the problem is too hard.)

You also mentioned your "basic strategy" process breaking down. Some of that is a function of stamina / feeling mentally fatigued, some of that is your mindset (you lose confidence because you want to feel 100% confident on everything and you don't), and some of that is probably also not feeling totally confident about the processes you have themselves. Possibly you lose trust in the processes because you aren't 100% confident on all of your answers - but then you're never going to trust any process you try because you're never going to be 100% confident on every last Q.

So, mindset change first. Next, have to make sure that you know and trust your processes. Finally, have to spend time on this:

I think i couldn't relate each question with the question i already solved.

What have you been using so far? Have you developed your own processes for the different question types, or have you been using particular processes from particular books / companies?

I have almost exhausted all my practice tests. could you please tell me how to test my real improvement in my future preparation?

Be careful about taking too many practice tests. You have used ours and 800Score it looks like. Any others? GMATPrep is great, but that's only 2 tests. You may also want to try Kaplan - my students tend to think the quant is a bit too easy, but you're really concerned about the verbal, so that's ok. (Note: I just had a student tell me today that the Kaplan tests she has doesn't give her essays - if that's the case, write the essays yourself using prompts chosen randomly from your Official Guide book.

I will read the question then go to every answer choice to find out the errors in it. This way of studying is very time consuming.

Just a note - your goal is not to get through as many questions as possible. Your goal is to learn as many lessons as possible from each problem, including the ability to apply those lessons to future, different problems. I would rather have my students do fewer problems but really study them deeply.

Use those two articles that I gave you to help you on the really long underline / lots of big changes SC problems, but it also sounds like you need some work on your overall process - see my notes / questions about this above.

It takes me more than 4 minutes to get complete understanding of the passage.

I do not want you to have a complete understanding of the passage. If you have a complete understanding, you are trying to understand WAY too much. There should be many things - most of the details in the passage, actually - that you only understand a little bit by the time you're through reading.

Take a look at these articles:
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/04/ ... mp-passage
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/07/ ... rc-passage

You can't email me directly, unfortunately, no. We do offer individual tutoring, which would give you direct access to an instructor, but we can't offer that kind of access for free or our instructors would be doing nothing but answering emails all day and all night. :)

If you are interested in that level of support, you can certainly contact the office to discuss the possibility of tutoring. You should also continue to take advantage of our free services here!

[senthil.chinnaraj]

Thanks a lot Stacey!! I will keep in mind the things pointed out by you.

Regards,
Senthil.

[StaceyKoprince]

good luck!