Have Studied for Four Months and I'm Stuck

[weschris1]

If you have a moment I'd really appreciate your help. I've been doing what them manhattan consultative session suggested since the class has finished and haven't seen any improvement in my quant or verbal scores. I have scored between a 38-39 on every practice test I've taken in both topics. I've been studying more in depth the topics I struggle with based on my CAT results, but still seem to get the same score every time.

Consistently when doing problem sets of 10 to 20 questions I normally get around 65% right on quant and close to 90% right on verbal.

I'm not scheduled to take the test until December so I should have some time to correct my mistakes. It sounds like the CAT nature of the test, plus timing, may be effecting me. But I have been doing my practice sets under the same time set constraints. I'm kind of stumped right now on what I can do to get my score to 700+.

Have you seen this in the past with students? Any advice as to how they overcame such problems? I would very much appreciate your help.

Thanks,

Wes

[StaceyKoprince]

Yes, you are not alone. There are a lot of additional factors when you start talking about full sections and a 3.5-hour long test.

(Also, by consultative session, do you mean the Post-Course Assessment, the meeting after the course is over to go over your test results and come up with a study plan? Just want to make sure we're thinking about the same thing.)

So here's what we're going to do. You're going to provide me with a bunch of data so that I can see what's going on, BUT you're also going to take the first stab at analyzing and coming up with a plan. This way, you'll learn how to figure out the plan for yourself (vs. following a plan someone else has given you), so you'll be in a better position to adjust if you hit a wall, as you seem to have now.

First, read these two articles:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/inde ... lly-tests/
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... -the-gmat/

Think about how what you've been doing does and doesn't match up with that and how you may need to change your approach accordingly.

Then, use the below to analyze your most recent MGMAT CATs (this should take you a minimum of 1 hour):
http://tinyurl.com/analyzeyourcats

Based on all of that, figure out your strengths and weaknesses as well as any ideas you have for what you think you should do. Then come back here and tell us; we'll tell you whether we agree and advise you further.

[weschris1]

Stacey,

Thank you for your response. Yes, I was referring to the consultative session I had not only with my course teacher, but also the 30 minute after course session.

Let me study these articles over the weekend, evaluate my tests, and get back to you Monday.

Thanks,

Wes

[weschris1]

How does my current study match up with what you've suggested in the first two articles:


My current study consists of me taking a CAT every three weeks, analyzing/reviewing the results, and studying the topics I struggled most with in verbal for one hour before work/quant two hours after work. After I finish the section of whichever book I'm studying, I'll do all the official guide problems related to that topic in the back of the book and then review them.

Based on your two articles I am not looking for patterns in the questions like you suggest. I've never looked at a problem and thought in my mind, "what problem have I done that is similar to this problem." I would say I am more trying to learn the math/verbal rules, and then follow the rules in the problems I do.

Although I am reviewing the problems, the depth to which I review them is not as thorough as you suggest in the second article. I will definitely spend more time asking those questions you suggest. Perhaps this is why I am struggling on the full test vs. practice problems. I get so caught up in following the rules that I don't look for/recognize patterns?

What I will change based on those articles is:

1. Take more time to review problems asking the questions you suggest
2. Look for more patterns between the problems I have done and the ones I am doing
3. Complete a variety of problems regularly, not just the ones I struggle with on the CAT

Strengths & Weakness on Tests:

Weaknesses:
1. On each test I took, I at least missed 1 string of four problems on each section. Sometimes that number reached three times of four in a row wrong per section. The earlier it happened in the section, the more it seemed to ding my overall score in that section.
2. I spend waaaaay too much time on reading the RC passage the first time, especially when higher level questions. I need to just do the skeleton and go back for detail. The extra time I get I need to spend on SC, I seem to blaze through those far too fast and make careless mistakes.
3. The problems I spent the most time on were more often then not wrong. Use strategic guessing more effectively.
4. Based on your timing guidelines I have "A large timing problem" on both quant and verbal. There was no time management in place during test - use simple model of every 10 questions where I should be.
5. I seem to be unwilling to give up on roughly 10 math problems per test (greater than 2:30 spent on question). Topics that I know I suck at I spend 2 wasted minutes on (combinatorics). Need to learn where and when to pick battles.

Strengths:
1. I am resilient and hanging in there :)
2. I rock at CR & SC
3. I'm pretty good at RC when I don't spend too much time on initial reading
4. For some reason I am great at word problems...?

Summary:

Clearly I have a timing issue. I didn't realize how bad it was until now. The content areas, specifically math, are the ones I am going to continue to focus on.

Let me digest the timing articles a little more and get back to you as far as what I think I need to do to improve my timing.

Thanks for your help!

Wes

[weschris1]

Stacey,

In response to your question about what I should do to work on my timing, here is my plan:

1. Develop 1 minute sense through the lap button on timer. Don't just do an aggregate of say, 10 quant problems in 20 minutes, but make sure to time each problem and practice with the one minute lap button.
2. Guess immediately on problems you know you will get wrong.
3. Implement method two for keeping track of timing on CAT.
4. I don't know how to control this one, but I have to stop missing 4 in a row on each section. I've had one of those strings on each practice test I take. These usually result from taking too long on a tough problem, and then freaking out and guessing on a few.

The biggest problem I have is timing. I am going to continue the pattern of work I've been doing up to this point (1 hour verbal before work 2 hours quant after work on my Bucket 2 problems). I am throwing my ugh problems away and am going to stop wasting time on topics it will take me too long to get. The big change for me moving forward to work on timing is to apply the timing/review rules I mentioned earlier. Hopefully looking for patterns and gathering my 1 minute sense should help me stay on track with timing and focus on getting right what I can get right.

Thoughts?

[StaceyKoprince]

Perhaps this is why I am struggling on the full test vs. practice problems. I get so caught up in following the rules that I don't look for/recognize patterns?

Essentially, yes. From what you've described, you are studying as though this is a math test - learn how to do the math and then you can do any math problem.

This isn't a math test though. It's a thinking / executive reasoning / decision making test. Yes, you do need to have certain underlying math skills, but the test is *really* testing you on how well and how flexibly you can think your way through a new-ish* situation.

*New-ish because these things aren't really new. But they can sure feel like it! If you're learning to spot the patterns and know the "GMAT code," then you're learning how to recognize similar (though different on the surface) questions in future.

The problems I spent the most time on were more often then not wrong.

Remind yourself of this every single time you want to spend more time because "I studied this!" or "If I spend a little more time, I'm sure I'll figure it out!" Let it go. :)

Love your entire list in your first post. Now going to the second post.

On the 4-in-a-row thing:

These usually result from taking too long on a tough problem, and then freaking out and guessing on a few.

This is the real pattern that needs to get broken. You've now shown yourself, via your own data, that spending extra time doesn't help, right? So what you really need to do is change the "school" mindset that still has you trying to get everything right. :)

I've been telling a bunch of my students to do this lately and it's working, so now I'm telling you too. Read the below article (you've already read it once) every day for the next 2 weeks.

https://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/inde ... lly-tests/

Come back and tell me in 1 week and in 2 weeks why I'm telling you to read it every day.

And again I agree with everything you say in your second post. Yes. Start doing it!

[weschris1]

Stacey,

I've been reading the "What the GMAT really tests" article every day. In addition, I've been reading "In it to win it" and "But I studied this." Per your assignment, here are my thoughts:

I think the overall theme and thing you're trying to get forward is this:

If you don't know how to answer a question, you're actually doing the test wrong if you continue to try and and do the problem. Expect to guess, be it randomly or educatedly, 4-7 times per section.

Counterintuitively to what you have been taught for 16+ years of academic education, that is what is the right strategy on this test.

Perseverance in the sense of sticking with a problem or frankly even caring about a problem a second after it is done is going to kill you on this thing. Those attributes are not virtues on the GMAT.

The test of the GMAT isn't SO much about content knowledge, its about knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are with that content knowledge, and using the precious commodity of time accordingly.

You really need to know your strengths and weaknesses going into this thing. Just like in the game of basketball for me, I knew what I was good at, and what I was not good at. I also knew what my opponent was good at and what he was not good at. I knew if I let him do X he would score, and if he did Y, he probably wouldn't score. I knew if I did X, he would probably block my shot, but if I pump faked I could go around him.

For example, sometimes to maintain my energy to be fresh for the fourth quarter I would let my opponent do Y, and not go 100% hard on that defensive possession because I knew it probably wouldn't result in a score for his team most of the time. In order to maintain myself during the game, you definitely wouldn't let him do X, ever, but if he did Y say, 5 times, he would probably only make one and that wouldn't kill the team. The overall benefit of me staying in the game for offense and rebounding was worth the sacrifice of letting him go 1 for 5 on Y shots that he wasn't very good at.

Let me keep reading these and integrating what I am learning from what we've talked about in the past and I'll get back with you. This is very helpful having to articulate these principles in my own words.

Thanks,

Wes

[StaceyKoprince]

If you don't know how to answer a question, you're actually doing the test wrong if you continue to try and and do the problem. Expect to guess, be it randomly or educatedly, 4-7 times per section.

Exactly! And that is because this is really not an academic test (though it certainly looks, feels, and smells like one). It is a test of how good you are at business. And business is NOT about pursuing bad opportunities until you lose your shirt. Well, good business isn't about that, anyway. :)

Excellent analogies (re: basketball). Exactly. You need to make sure you still have juice for the 4th quarter. The whole game matters, and you're making trade-off decisions all the time because you can't cover everyone on the court every second of the time. You can't even cover your guy 100% of the time.

Well done.

[weschris1]

Hi Stacey,

I hope you've had an excellent holiday! I just wanted to report back to you how I did based on trying to implement the ideas we discussed.

I took the GMAT on December 30th and got a the following score:

Integrated Reasoning: 6
Quant: 38
Verbal: 37

TOTAL: 620

I was a bit disappointed, I was shooting for a 670 to go to either MIT or USC real estate development school in a few years. The score I got would likely get me into the University of Utah real estate development school (I live here in Salt Lake City) which would be great, but I wanted to push for the option of getting into any of the three schools.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here because I know I've asked you a ton of questions already, and I'm 99% sure you can't see into the future :), but I wanted to get your thoughts on two things:

1. What score increase, if any, could I realistically get based on a month or two of continued study?

Note: I started at a 550, have studied for 6 months, and have improved my score to 620. That is pretty consistent with where my practice test scores are. I'm generally terrible at standardized tests, and my quant score has only improved two points in six months. Its tough to look at it that way, but it's the truth.

2. Financially, I can't afford personal tutoring. Beyond tutoring, and implementing the things you told me a few months ago (I swear I stuck to it for at least two hours a day, seriously) is there anything you have seen work for students whose quant score has not moved, despite in depth study, a point or two in six months?

As always, I sincerely appreciate the feedback.

Regards,

Wes

[StaceyKoprince]

Ha - I'm 100% sure I can't predict the future. If I could, I'd be playing the lotto right now... ;)

So, first, turn around your response. Yes, I know you were hoping to get a score that would be good enough for all 3 schools, but you did get a score that would be good enough for the one where you are, so that's a step in the right direction. That reduces the pressure - at least you've got that locked in.

To go from 620 to 670 is probably roughly the same amount of effort you've spent so far (the higher you go, the harder it gets to go higher), but it probably wouldn't take quite as long (because you had to build up a base across everything before).

What I'd really like to know is what the data says from your most recent practice CATs. I'm wondering whether it's the case that your underlying quant knowledge hasn't improved more than a point or two or whether there's something else going on - timing issues, or issues with the approaches you're choosing, or careless mistakes.

Can you analyze your last practice test for me? Use this:
http://tinyurl.com/analyzeyourcats

You can do just quant if you want or you can do both Q and V. Let me know the results as well as what you think might be going on. You may even want to do the Q review for a test from a few months earlier so that you can compare the results.

[weschris1]

Stacey,

Thanks for the encouragement. Just taking a big picture view from my first two MGMAT CATS after I started the course with the two CATS after I took the course, my quant takeaways are as follows:

1. Timing has generally improved for problem solving and data sufficiency. Timing has also generally improved for most topics tested. This is ok, but needs to continue to improve.

2. Algebra, FDP, and Word Problems have substantially improved since I took the course. I am getting a greater percentage of them right and at a generally higher difficulty level (560 to 620). This is good.

3. Geometry and Number properties have gone down the tube (40% correct to 15% correct at a higher difficulty level than early in my studies). I think this happened because I have tried to focus on what is tested most frequently on the GMAT, and made those topics my priority. As a result, I am getting them right more frequently. However, when I am tested at that same difficulty level on concepts that I am not as strong on, it pulls my quant score down.

That is all my analysis from quant. Verbally timing, difficulty level, and percentage correct have all increased and so has my general verbal score.

I had a crazy idea last night. I scored a 6 on IR, which is better than I have comparatively done on quant, without doing any studying for it beyond watching the IR Interact stuff. One of the best things it taught me was to quickly and randomly guess on two questions to give myself more time to answer questions I know I could do.

The thought crossed my mind that if I applied that same logic to the quant section, and guessed randomly, quickly, on 7 problems in the section I would have 2:30 for each quant problem. Is that idea insane? Would that totally tank my chances of getting a 40 or above on that section? Just a random thought.

The plan moving forward would just be to continue to focus on my weaknesses and continue doing/reviewing problems in great depth.

Any other suggestions? I just signed up today to take it March 2, 2015 so I have 7 weeks before the next go round and I would really like to make this my last go.

Warm regards,

Wes

[StaceyKoprince]

Good that timing is moving in the right direction. Keep doing what you're doing in order to continue that progress.

Okay, time to add *some* NP and Geo to the mix. For NP, focus on divis and prime, odd even pos neg. Ignore combinatorics and probability - you'll typically see just 1 (total for both categories!) on the test. For Geo, focus on the common shapes - triangles, polygons. If coordinate plane isn't too bad for you, also learn the basics there.

The stress on Geo (for those for whom it's not a strength): learn the basics so that you do not miss lower-level questions. Note that "lower-level" will change as you lift your score - what used to be mid-to-lower-level for you has now become lower-level, so you'll have to adjust accordingly.

Next, to your guessing / timing question. You are going to do something like this, but you are NOT going to just randomly assign 2m30s to all questions. You're going to make considered, thoughful choices based on what you see and how things are going.

You can guess on up to 7 questions per section and still get a very good score (though if you are going for an 85th+ percentile score in either section, you can probably only do this 4-5 times).

So, first, yes! Guess when the question (a) looks really hard, and (b) is in an area of weakness. Study how to make educated guesses, because sometimes you can narrow down the answers without too much trouble - spend up to a minute on that when appropriate. Then you increase your odds of guessing correctly and you still save some time.

Next, the time that you save does allow you to spend more time on other questions - but don't just arbitrarily spread it across all questions. When you get a question that you know how to do in normal-to-fast time, work at your normal pace. If that means you're done at 1m34s, great. (Don't rush yourself at all, though. When you know what you're doing, the last thing you want to do is artificially rush and cause yourself a careless mistake.)

Next, you'll get some questions that are in an area of strength but harder than average (for you). Great, here's where you can toss in an extra 30 seconds or so.

You'll also have a few questions that you think you can do but you make a mistake or get tangled up somewhere along the way. If you realize this when you're still at / under 1m30s, you can back up ONCE and try to fix things, giving yourself a total of 2m30s on the problem. If you get tangled up a second time on that problem, guess immediately and move on.

If you have the "but I studied this; I should know how to do it!" feeling, do NOT give yourself that extra 30 seconds here, even though you may have the time. That particular signal is really saying, "I don't know / remember how to do this problem right now" which for all practical purposes is the same as not knowing how to do it at all.

That all make sense? Basically, yes, you can go to 2.5 minutes on some problems, as long as you are cutting yourself off appropriately when you shoudl be doing so - but you still need to make careful decisions about where to spend that extra time.

You mention that the plan is to focus on your weaknesses. Yes, though just to make sure: focus on your bucket 2 "low hanging fruit" weaknesses, not the bucket 3 "let these go faster" weaknesses. (If you don't know what I'm referring to, re-read the article about how to analyze your CATs.)

Questions on any of that? Let me know. And you can start practicing the "guess fast on the ones I KNOW I don't know and then allocate extra time to some other ones" so that you start to get that decision-making process down.

[weschris1]

As usual, your response is very appreciated. I think I got what you're saying. Instead of a blatant, random guessing on 7 problems that takes 10 seconds or less I should take about a minute to make an educated guess on the problems I see as weaknesses. I should consciously pursue this educated guessing strategy on 5-7 problems. I'm not really shooting for 85th percentile on math, I would be very happy with 50th percentile so I will likely guess on 7 or so.

From there, I'll need to be a little more selective as far as where that extra time is spent. It's not just a straight across every problem gets the extra time, it needs to be used selectively. I plan on practicing this strategy doing 3-4 quant sections on an CAT to really get a feel for it.

Also, thanks for the clarification on studying weaknesses. My intention is to study bucket 2 primarily. The "getting them wrong faster" topics have been identified and abandoned.

Thanks again,

Wes

[StaceyKoprince]

Ah, no! Sorry. The 5-7 question thing really is a fairly quick "Nope, don't know how to do it, picking my favorite letter and moving on" strategy. Within about 30 seconds of starting.

Beyond that, you will have additional questions on which you think, "I don't really know how to do this, but I see I can estimate (or whatever), so I'll eliminate some answers that way." Those are no longer pure guesses because you really are narrowing down. I don't have a number for you here (in terms of # of times to do this) - you just do it when you have to and when you see an opportunity to make an educated guess.

And yes to the rest - bucket 2, low-hanging fruit, is the priority!